R-Wells

I don’t have a problem with stiffer penalties, I have problem with people that only want to complain about a problem but never offer realistic ideas or thoughts about how to fix the problem.
Your thoughts seem plausible.

But, for instance what if it were determined that the ped or cyclist were partially at fault?
What if there were no witnesses?
What if it was you wife or mother that hit someone?


Some of the problems with getting stiffer penalties are.

1: You have folks like donnamb that would say your idea is not accountability but rather just inconvenience.

2: Cyclists are always telling every one that cycling is not dangerous.

3 Cyclist seem to be in favor of less government interference not more.

4 The vast majority of folks feel that there is a limit to how much you can punish a person for making a mistake.

5: You cant get enough cyclist to agree with your ideas, and then do something about it.

genec

LOL... " the roads are so good." OK, really, I can agree sort of with what you are saying... I remember years ago talking to another cyclist and he called it the "slot car effect..." motorists here are guided everywhere with lights, lines and signs.

But as far as the actual quality of the roads... man o man, in some places they really suck. I noticed this while on some drive/bike vacations this last summer that took me over a lot of western roads from Arizona to Washington to California. Up north, the roads seemed to be in better shape than in CA. But a real eye opener was comparing the CA roads to those in the south of France... the French have road surfaces that are straight out of Disneyland. So smooth and well edged that they were unreal, and I drooled thinking of riding a bike on those smooth French roads.

However, back to the subject at hand... and that is motorist's habits... and whether changing the laws would change driving habits.

What does MADD think... has changing the laws re drunk driving made any difference?

Are our laws here sufficient? I know that the Chinese engineers that I work with can get a driver's license here far easier (very scary) than they can back in China... and they joke about it. I know that Australian driver's licenses are much more difficult to get.

I have heard that German licenses are also more difficult to get. I also understand, but I am not sure, that there is a greater penalty in Germany and a few other EU countries regarding auto injuries... does anyone know the facts?

Americans driving mindlessly... oh yeah, that I can believe.

R-Wells

Would this change the way you drive?

Helmet Head

I should have said besides drunk driving.

Drinking and driving is a well-defined behavior that is easy to identify by each person.

So, besides drinking and driving, what specific behavior do you think drivers could be coaxed into changing by introducing higher consequences?

noisebeam

Sure most folks don't think their bad actions are bad, nor going to lead to a problem...
News stories about folks who loose license for causing injury influence others thinking perhaps.
But other changes too...
Maybe jail time for speeding >20mph over SL on non-interstate road
Auto jailtime for 3rd red light running offense (yeah I know the arguement against getting people too touchy on the brake at yellows)
A focus on 'minor' offensenses (costly though)

Harsh, deserving of backlash in freedom loving US, perhaps...

I am not prepared to present an approach (as I have not put much thought into it) or debate this, but its seems a fairly significant safety problem for the US (and other countries too) that deserves some attention that goes beyond lip service and the incremental changes that do sometimes occur.

Al

R-Wells

I really think the process of getting a license should be much more comprehensive.
Most especialy regarding most motorist not knowing cyclists rights.

noisebeam

Probably not, but I highly focused on driving as safe as possible. I never speeed, come to full stop at every legally required point, etc. Never use phone in car, don't carry on conversations with passengers in car. I think about and practice all defensive driving methods.

Of course this does not mean I am a safe or good driver, as I can't self evaluate effectively, but I strive to be.

Al

R-Wells

The problem is,
it dosnt matter how good of a driver you are, you will still make mistakes, somtimes minor, somtimes not.
If somehow even with all of your good habits, you still managed to accidently kill someone, what penalties would youself impose on yourself?

genec

Then it would not require a surrender of license.

There are still forensic experts.

What color bike do you want, mom?



The fact is this really doesn't happen all that often. In the US, there are about 700 deaths of cyclists annually.... and about 2100 deaths of pedestrians. Of all those deaths, some are clearly the fault of the ped or cyclist.

But what about the few remaining... Was that motorist drunk... text messaging... speeding... or simply not maintaining control of their vehicle... all rather lame reasons for killing someone... yet some driver chose to do something other than pay attention to where their 3000+lb auto was going... while in the presence of unprotected people. Can it be that those that chose to be "distracted" simply should not drive... How does one explain a 21 inch drift onto a shoulder of a road... "I donno... just happened."

Where is it written that all people have the right stuff to drive? Where is it written that there is a right to drive?

Sorry... but given the numbers... I believe it is about time to make drivers more responsible for their actions... or rather inactions... such as failing to control their vehicles.

"Keep your mind on the road and your hands upon the wheel... " --The Doors

noisebeam

If I was fully at fault I'd be willing to loose my license.
Al

R-Wells

Hey I was trying to get you to take the time to figure out how to solve the problems involved with applying your ideas, not saying they are bad ideas.

You cant say "it doesnt happen very often" and then say this is a serious problem we need to address.
It happens too damn often and there needs to be a way to deal with it.
But as a cyclist we tend to take it personal and get irrational and irate, which clouds our judgment and credebility.
And as human beings we tend to find it easier to complain about it than acually get together and do somthing.

How does a cyclist explain running of the road

R-Wells

So would I.

But my question was.what penalties would youself impose on yourself?

noisebeam

I had concern about the 'state' of driving well before I became a frequent cyclist. (or one who rode in traffic often)
My concern is fully driven as a road user both motor vehicle, pedestrian and cyclist. The 'state of driving' concerns me more actually when I am in my motor vehicle as I have more interaction, higher speeds and a greater tendency to have outwardly aggressive and careless riving put me at risk. I find motorists in general 'treat' me better when I am on a bicycle.
Al

genec

Two wheels... and a lack of 3000 lbs... therefore it could be anything from wind to pebbles causing a cyclist to run off the road.

Frankly though the death of cyclists and ped does not happen really all that often... especially compared to motorists killing other motorists. But when it does, it is a tragic, often preventable situation. I do not know how often the ped or cyclist is responsible. But I do know that motorists that are responsible are giving the most rediculous reasons for their lack of control... and that is what I am focusing on.

If motorists realized that beyond the potential of death... they would also be forced to be in the same position as the person whose life they may potentially take... perhaps it would change their focus just a bit. Obviously for some motorists "life is cheap," otherwise text messaging and lack of control of their vehicle would not have become their priorities while they drove in the presence of other humans.

The idea is to focus attention on a situation... and make motorists double think what they are about to do. The problem is not in numbers, but in perception.

At this point, even repeat DUI offenders don't lose their licenses... maybe it is time to change some things.

R-Wells

Cyclist run of the road because they are not paying attention to what they are doing.
There is no excuse for running of the road on a bicycle.(not reffering to being run of the road)

I agree the situation as it is, is unaceptable.
The question is, what can be done.

genec

To the best of my knowledge, only one cyclist has killed a pedestrian... but how many motorists have killed peds or cyclists through their inattention?

What can be done is to make "inattention" more of a penality... at least in the presence of peds and cyclists.

R-Wells

Not reffering to cyclist hitting peds.
I was reffering to cyclist runing smooth a** of the road when nobody else is around, or worse yet when somone is watching.

My point was that motorist runoff the road for the same reason cyclist runoff the road.

I am just not sure that a stiffer penalty would realy work, if the penalty was Severe enough, say for instance the death penalty then it might have some effect
But simply suspending a license, I am afraid would have little affect.
We are talking about people that don’t believe they are going to run off the road and kill someone.
Most are going to say fine with me, I am not going to do that anyway.
And when they hear of some one else losing there license for running of the road and killing someone, they will say, well he should have paid more attention and not run off the road.
Not “Boy I need to be more careful”.

Think about it this way, what are the odds of me runing off the road and hitting someone?
The odds are greater that I will win the lottery.
I have already logged over 20 million miles on the road.
How are you going to convince me to be more careful when the odds are I am already being careful enough?


No amount of penaltys we can impose will keep people from making mistakes.
I am not opposed to stiffer penaltys, but I bet they wont keep people from making mistakes they didnt think they would make to begin with.

We need realistic stiffer penaltys and a major publicity program, say for instance TV comercials that run 10 or 20 times a day for a couple years.
And we need a more complete driver education program, and more intense testing with more cycling related material in the tests.

Now as a group that cant decide on whether or not it is right to run red lights or not, how are we going to band together and convince 250 million people that think we are in their way, to do it our way?

atbman

I agree that we all make mistakes, but running into the back of a van with flashing lights on is more than a simple mistake - it amounts to, not just negligence, but criminal negligence. Unless the sight line was unusually limited, the driver concerned must not have been paying attention for a criminally negligent period of time to have run into a clearly visible vehicle.

Which makes the decision of the local prosecutor utterly grotesque, not to mention irresponsible.

Is anyone running a campaign to get her decision reversed?

genec

The very fact that we continue to view these issues as "mistakes" and not as the poor choices they actually are is part of the problem. In all of my 30+ years as a cyclist I have never run off the road, nor in my 30+ years as a driver have I ever hit someone because I was text messaging.

Certainly these are more than "just" mistakes... these collisions were made because someone made very poor decisions.

Plowing into the back of a well marked vehicle with flashing lights and a large sign is not just a simple mistake. Plowing into a cyclist because you chose to text message is not a simple mistake. Crossing over into a shoulder some nearly 2 feet is more than a simple "oops."

The bottom like is that some drivers apparently cannot handle the responsibility of piloting a large, heavy, powerful, vehicle... and once they demonstrate that lack of ability, they should not be given the chance again.

R-Wells

I was under the empresion that niether of the two we are talking about were text messaging?

A truck piles in to the back of a group of sheriffs and policemen and you think they didnt investigate the hell outa the case?

I get the impression you are insinuating that you are above having this type af accident in your car?

genec

Well search back far enough in BF and you will find the case of the youthful motorist that killed a cyclist while text messaging.

I am sure that someone investigated the case of the "truck piles in to the back of a group of sheriffs and policemen", but probabaly thought it obviously open and shut and may not have presented enough evidence to the judge who chose to find no one guilty.

As far as my accident record... that is up to me; but I do leave lots of distance between me and any vehicle in front of me (which others all too often determine is their space) and I plan ahead when I drive... meaning I think about the consequenses of following too close and and I signal and change lanes well in advance. I can and do clearly observe that others on the roadways do not do this.

Can I make a mistake... sure, I too am only human. If I kill a ped or cyclist, then frankly I believe that I too deserve exactly what I am proposing.

However, bear in mind that a little good judgement goes a long way... far too many motorists are on auto pilot and do not exercise any judgement what so ever... but are simply reacting and sliding by on some very slim margin... and for what gain? That is the part that really hurts... what does "hotshot driving" really gain anyone in the long run... maybe a minute or two... at what possible expense... a life?

I have had motorists punch it and whip around me in a very aggressive manner in a very foolish show of power and waste of gas and tire rubber, while demonstrating very poor driving judgement, only to have me roll up on my bike to the same stoplight only seconds later. Was that "good judgement" on their part?

R-Wells

Ah, yes people can do stupid crap.
The kid that was text messaging need his gonads cut of!
I am not opposed to harsher punishment when its called for.
And there are many time when its called for.

But in the case of this thread they could find nothing such as the things you are describing, she was even driving under the speed limit.
And I bet the lady would have done something diferent had she known.

In the case of the memorial ride with the ex LEO's I would bet you a dozen donuts they investigated that one very Thoroughly. They tend to get a bit crabby when you kill an LEO.

genec

OK clearly "losing his license" will fit into that catagory.

What I don't understand is how she can be 2 feet out of place and not understand why? Where was her head... I still think there is more to this than meets the eye.


I hear you... so how did a judge find no guilt in this case? Was it because bicycles were involved? How can one plow into the back of a vehicle with flashers on... was the driver blindfolded? There is more to this story too.

See at a very minimum... all these drivers were on auto pilot... and if that is they way they accept their responsibility as a driver... then they should not have that responsibility. It is obviously too much for them to handle. And this gets back to what I was saying way in the beginning... why is it that we think everyone has the "right stuff" to drive?

atbman

The question is not whether the details of the collision were properly investigated, but why the public prosecutor cam to such a barmy conclusion?

The fact that the driver wasn't speeding, or texting, or drunk or in breach of certain specific legal requirements is, and should have been, utterly irrelevant. If you collide with a highly visible vehicle which is showing flashing lights, then your driving falls so far below the standards of competence, concentration and responsibility, then you are criminally negligent.

The fact that human beings make mistakes is not relevant in the slightest, because the enormity of the mistake places the driver's actions totally outside any definition of acceptable error. It was not a momentary loss of concentration. If the laws of that state only allow for prosecution for very specific offences, such as those quoted in the story, then that law is grossly inadequate.

I have made mistakes, on bicycles, motor scooters, motorbike, cars, vans and small trucks and I am grateful in some of those instances, for the alertness of other road users. What I have not done, in 50+ years on the road, is not see a large vehicle, with lights flashing merrily away and driven into it.

Not to prosecute demonstrates a failure of will, intelligence and competence. What is the local/regional/state cycling community doing about it, if anything?

genec

+100.

Exactly and very well put. How the judge or prosecutor failed to recognize this is beyond me. At a very minimum, there is negligent driving involved.