CB HI

Actually, it tells us far more about you and who the real fool is, than it does about SBRDude, Paul Barnard and Dchiefransom.

Paul Barnard

It's different around here in that most of the lights don't have push button protected crosswalks. Many won't even detect my motorcycle.

CB HI

Maybe not so different, as many of the push buttons here are not electrically connected, and are there only as a placebo for pedestrians.

Virus610

Can you find not one main road in a 20 mile trip? I live in a fairly insignificant town (80k pop.) and you can still find a road with light-priority biking all of 0.5km in any direction.

CB HI

Do you prefer riding on the main highway at 4 am with the drunk and drowsy drivers?

In case your not aware, Honolulu, HI is on an island with a limit number of roads.

Virus610

I was not aware about the road situation in Honolulu. As for main roads at 4am, I do it quite frequently. I'm a defensive rider, unless someone is trying to hit me, I am more than aware enough to see or hear a bad driver coming and react accordingly.

SBRDude

Nice personal attack.

Not only does that say a lot about you, but your failure to articulate why it's necessary to stop at empty intersections beyond a "because it's the law" doesn't speak well of you either.

We ALL break laws. Do you ever cross the street to go to your neighbor's house? Or, do you walk up to the corner and do it legally at an intersection?? Stop being a hypocrite about law breaking.

noisebeam

Proably totally legal if in a residental neighborhood where most often at least one of the intersections in each direction is not light controlled.

SBRDude

Probably true in most places, but there are lots of caveats to pedestrian rules that no one would think twice to violate if it was safe. For example, in TX, it's illegal to cross an intersection diagonally unless there is an authorized traffic control device. So, doing that in a neighborhood would also be illegal, but I'm sure there are plenty of situations where people do it quite routinely without anyone thinking twice about it.

noisebeam

It is very rare here to not have any traffic control at intersections. There is usually a stop sign for at least one approach.

Seattle Forrest

I ride with traffic, ergo I sometimes run through red lights. What has that got to do with the practice of driving on freeways?

CB HI

And here I thought you are a pretty new adult cyclist with only 4 or 5 months experience.

How do you advise we guarantee that no drunk (or sleeping driver) suddenly swerves into us from behind?

How does your advice differ if we are stopped at a red light?

unterhausen

This really isn't always possible. Around here, if I want to get to town, I have about a mile of busy roads no matter what I do. Some of them shouldn't be as busy as they are, but Pennsylvanians are addicted to their "short cuts." If I'm going out on a recreational ride, I have at least 5 miles of fairly busy roads that I can't avoid. This area used to be a lot more rural, but there is now housing much further out into the country.

Virus610

I am fairly new to cycling, but I'd say that 4-5 months of regular riding on the road during day and night is enough to develop appropriately defensive habits. Obviously I haven't encountered every kind of driver there is, anybody driving drunk will probably be on a sideroad to avoid being picked off by a police officer anyway.

As any driving school would tell you: If you're at a red light and there is something putting you in danger, you do whatever is necessary to avoid said danger, even if that means running the light. That doesn't mean being impatient is an excuse to disobey the law, however.

I just don't see why people believe they are above motorist and pedestrian law because they're on a bicycle. Walking across on a red is illegal, driving across on a red is illegal. Biking across shouldn't be? That's just silly. There's really nothing to discuss, if you don't want to obey one set of laws, obey the other. They both say the same thing, though.

noisebeam

I find traffic laws provide benefit to me that vastly outweigh any inconvenience in following them. I would not feel right in expecting and using the advantages the laws provide while not following parts of the law just because it provides some little extra benefit. That is how it is internal to me. While I would prefer if others didn't break traffic laws, I only really care when it directly affects my safety.

CB HI

Your flat wrong on this view.

AH, but going through a defective traffic signal is legal. Since none of the city or state detectors will detect a cyclist here, then all those signals are defective for cyclist. Since it is legal to go through a defective signal, no way am I going to wait at a red light for a motorist to show up or do the stupid pedestrian button shuffle over a 20 mile commute.

Sitting at a red light that will not change at night, with drunks and drowsy drivers around is far more dangerous than carefully running the red light.

Do you really think you can get up to speed at a dead stop to avoid a late swerve from a drunk driver; really?

Virus610

I've seen it for myself, but sure, let's go with that.

Is there so much harm in at least treating it like a stop sign as some state laws seem to suggest, instead of just blowing right through it?

As for drunken drivers, I never said you'd have to wait at a light for someone who may or may not be drunk, I did give an alternative that would put you back in motion. Of course you can't get up to speed if someone comes up beside you at a light and then suddenly swerves into you. Though in this case, waiting for the crosswalk would probably be safer, since you'll at least have a curb and maybe a lamppost between you and your drunken adversary.

SBRDude

From the context of the law, I took it to mean an authorized traffic control device to specifically allow diagonally crossing, and not that just having lights or stop signs in places means it's okay to cross diagonally. It's pretty obvious that the law was meant for urban or other high traffic intersections.

SBRDude

If a driver routinely speeds on the freeway and then gets pissed off at a cyclist safely running a red light because he's breaking the law, then that person is a hypocrite. And, since most people around here who get their panties in a wad over those who run empty intersections with stop signs and lights also probably speed on the freeway or routinely break some over law, they're also hypocrites.

Digital_Cowboy

And people who think that ethics/rules are "situational" are deluding themselves by using any rationalization they can to justify their behavior.

joewey

That is all.

Paul Barnard

No, that is far from all. A token stop in the name of compliance with the law does nothing to ensure safety. Visually clearing the intersection does, and that can easily be done without stopping. Nobody has come close to making a decent argument that it can't.

SBRDude

You've already admitted that you make exceptions to the rules, as in the case of an emergency. Rules ARE situational and even you believe it, if only to justify helping someone.

SPlKE 

It seems there are two kinds of people in the world: The "that is all" crowd, and everybody who lives in the real world.

ChasH

This is one of the lamest excuses for an "argument" that I've read on the internet in ... well ... maybe a decade. And that is truly saying something. Where I commute daily, almost none of the interesections are ever "empty" yet I see cyclists breaking the law on a regular basis.

If what you juveniles are saying is true, I should start running red lights on my motorcycles - only when I consider it "safe" of course. Laughable.

I will be candid here. You have to wonder about how responsible these cyclists are in other aspects of their lives, you really do. Such an attitude is likely to have other manifestations, personally and/or professionally - at least in some cases. You also wonder about age distribution - how far to the left is it skewed?

Time to act like fully grown adults and come to a complete stop at red lights - then again perhaps I'm making an unwarranted assumption abot maturity. Probably that's it in some cases.

The truth is that many cyclists see themselves as something special, holier than other road users apparently - as people with the special right to break the laws of the road if in their own personal judgment they can do it safely. What utter claptrap.