Cyclist killed in Toronto
11-09-11, 04:06 PM
#26
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zirger726: It is interesting to hear some of the things that factor in from the point of view of a truck/bus driver. Something to note is that the truck in this incident did not have a convex mirror on the right side. This is not illegal, but apparently most trucks have them in order to decrease/eliminate the blind spot, and it makes you wonder whether such a simple device could have prevented this tragedy.
Another relevent point is that the bump from the truck is not what killed the cyclist, but the fact she got pulled under the wheel and was subsequently crushed. (I have to admit, I'm not quite sure I understand from a physical standpoint how this getting-pulled-in happens). In any case, the Toronto Cyclists Union has been recommending side guards for trucks that again, may have prevented this incident.
So we seem to have two institutional changes (legislating convex mirrors and side guards) that may have prevented this incident and others like it.
As a cyclist, I know not to pull up beside a truck. But what scares me is there is not much I would be able to do if a truck pulled up beside me, and then forgot I was there (short of picking up my bike and moving to the shoulder or sidewalk, which is what I may now do if this ever happens). In cases like these where there is little pre-emptive action a cyclist can take other than getting off the road, the institutional changes mentioned above (better mirrors, sideguards) are even more important. There is no substitute for defensive cycling or driving, but given that mistakes are bound to occur it makes sense to enforce added safety measures.
Another relevent point is that the bump from the truck is not what killed the cyclist, but the fact she got pulled under the wheel and was subsequently crushed. (I have to admit, I'm not quite sure I understand from a physical standpoint how this getting-pulled-in happens). In any case, the Toronto Cyclists Union has been recommending side guards for trucks that again, may have prevented this incident.
So we seem to have two institutional changes (legislating convex mirrors and side guards) that may have prevented this incident and others like it.
As a cyclist, I know not to pull up beside a truck. But what scares me is there is not much I would be able to do if a truck pulled up beside me, and then forgot I was there (short of picking up my bike and moving to the shoulder or sidewalk, which is what I may now do if this ever happens). In cases like these where there is little pre-emptive action a cyclist can take other than getting off the road, the institutional changes mentioned above (better mirrors, sideguards) are even more important. There is no substitute for defensive cycling or driving, but given that mistakes are bound to occur it makes sense to enforce added safety measures.
11-09-11, 06:39 PM
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I drive a charter bus for a living and would like to comment on what I as a commercial driver would be thinking if I had to take this turn.
1. This is a tight turn less than 90 deg. I would probably hug the left side of the lane to have more room to turn right. This might invite a cyclist to pull up between me and the curb. I have already had cars do this and almost been in accidents.
2. I may still have to take more then one lane to make the turn. So now I am waiting for traffic to clear left and right, taking my attention away from traffic behind me and giving the cyclist time to catch me. (If she was behind the truck)
3. The little angle in the road just before the intersection is going to make the the blind spots in my mirrors even worse. There just isn't a good angle and big enough mirror.
A couple of more thoughts: People that don't drive large vehicles often don't know how much room we need to make a turn. I have had passengers amazed I was able to make a turn when I thought I had plenty of room and disappointed when I can't because of a street sign, pole, or curb in the way. Also just because our front wheels made the turn 15-20 feet from the corner doesn't mean the back wheels aren't going to be inches away from it. Personally I give large vehicles plenty of room, I've seen what 12 tons of vehicle can do to other objects. And finally yes cyclist do appear out of thin air, they also vanish into thin air every now and again. Most of my near misses with bikes have been when I was pulling away from a stop and was looking in a mirror, I usually just catch a little bit of movement. (Please use lights at night it really helps.)
I don't know who is to blame for this accident, there isn't enough information. I suspect both parties each did something to contribute, unfortunately it cost one of them their life.
Driving a bus has probably made me a better cyclist in traffic and riding a bike has probably made me a more polite driver.
1. This is a tight turn less than 90 deg. I would probably hug the left side of the lane to have more room to turn right. This might invite a cyclist to pull up between me and the curb. I have already had cars do this and almost been in accidents.
2. I may still have to take more then one lane to make the turn. So now I am waiting for traffic to clear left and right, taking my attention away from traffic behind me and giving the cyclist time to catch me. (If she was behind the truck)
3. The little angle in the road just before the intersection is going to make the the blind spots in my mirrors even worse. There just isn't a good angle and big enough mirror.
A couple of more thoughts: People that don't drive large vehicles often don't know how much room we need to make a turn. I have had passengers amazed I was able to make a turn when I thought I had plenty of room and disappointed when I can't because of a street sign, pole, or curb in the way. Also just because our front wheels made the turn 15-20 feet from the corner doesn't mean the back wheels aren't going to be inches away from it. Personally I give large vehicles plenty of room, I've seen what 12 tons of vehicle can do to other objects. And finally yes cyclist do appear out of thin air, they also vanish into thin air every now and again. Most of my near misses with bikes have been when I was pulling away from a stop and was looking in a mirror, I usually just catch a little bit of movement. (Please use lights at night it really helps.)
I don't know who is to blame for this accident, there isn't enough information. I suspect both parties each did something to contribute, unfortunately it cost one of them their life.
Driving a bus has probably made me a better cyclist in traffic and riding a bike has probably made me a more polite driver.
11-09-11, 07:29 PM
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zirger726: It is interesting to hear some of the things that factor in from the point of view of a truck/bus driver. Something to note is that the truck in this incident did not have a convex mirror on the right side. This is not illegal, but apparently most trucks have them in order to decrease/eliminate the blind spot, and it makes you wonder whether such a simple device could have prevented this tragedy.
Another relevent point is that the bump from the truck is not what killed the cyclist, but the fact she got pulled under the wheel and was subsequently crushed. (I have to admit, I'm not quite sure I understand from a physical standpoint how this getting-pulled-in happens). In any case, the Toronto Cyclists Union has been recommending side guards for trucks that again, may have prevented this incident.
So we seem to have two institutional changes (legislating convex mirrors and side guards) that may have prevented this incident and others like it.
Another relevent point is that the bump from the truck is not what killed the cyclist, but the fact she got pulled under the wheel and was subsequently crushed. (I have to admit, I'm not quite sure I understand from a physical standpoint how this getting-pulled-in happens). In any case, the Toronto Cyclists Union has been recommending side guards for trucks that again, may have prevented this incident.
So we seem to have two institutional changes (legislating convex mirrors and side guards) that may have prevented this incident and others like it.
The "being pulled" is not necessarily what happened, I think. Most times it seems that the cyclist is knocked over and then crushed under rear wheels. Argh
As a cyclist, I know not to pull up beside a truck. But what scares me is there is not much I would be able to do if a truck pulled up beside me, and then forgot I was there (short of picking up my bike and moving to the shoulder or sidewalk, which is what I may now do if this ever happens). In cases like these where there is little pre-emptive action a cyclist can take other than getting off the road, the institutional changes mentioned above (better mirrors, sideguards) are even more important. There is no substitute for defensive cycling or driving, but given that mistakes are bound to occur it makes sense to enforce added safety measures.
11-09-11, 07:37 PM
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Absolutely.
Absolutely. The most dangerous cyclists of Copenhagen are no doubt those who suddenly swerve out in front of you to overtake slower cyclists - without checking over their shoulder. ANYONE who drives a car knows about the over-the-shoulder check (and most of them actually perform it), but cyclists without a drivers licence don't necessarily.
Driving a bus has probably made me a better cyclist in traffic and riding a bike has probably made me a more polite driver.
11-09-11, 08:45 PM
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Someone (here?) proposed convex mirrors at dangerous corners. Sounds like a good idea to me.
The "being pulled" is not necessarily what happened, I think. Most times it seems that the cyclist is knocked over and then crushed under rear wheels. Argh
I've gotten onto the sidewalk two times in that situation. I don't trust all the lorry drivers round here to be aware of bikes.
The "being pulled" is not necessarily what happened, I think. Most times it seems that the cyclist is knocked over and then crushed under rear wheels. Argh
I've gotten onto the sidewalk two times in that situation. I don't trust all the lorry drivers round here to be aware of bikes.
11-09-11, 11:29 PM
#31
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Most of the road is pretty flat before hitting 430 feet of uphill approach that goes through the stop sign. Do you really think the expecting lady was out of the saddle racing the truck Chicago Al?
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11-11-11, 04:30 PM
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Nor do I think the truck came racing along, blew the stop sign, ignored the cyclist in the R of the lane, and made a quick turn that ran the cyclist over. For one thing, as you point out...there is 430' of uphill approach there.
I don't know what happened there and no one else here does either, though folks here love to turn incidents like this into 'SVU: Cyclist.'
I do know, though, that outside of movie stunts, truck drivers take tight turns very slowly, and the cab swings very wide...it's the trailer, following along later, that cuts close to corners. And that is a very dangerous place to be, as Zirger726 pointed out above, esp as it can look like there is room and time to get by, at the beginning of the truck's turn.
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Last edited by Chicago Al; 11-11-11 at 05:30 PM.
11-11-11, 05:11 PM
#33
Resident smartass.
Perhaps it was an error on her part, the driver's part, or possibly both. I can't say, as I simply don't have enough info. Regardless, the end result was the same. She died, while the driver has to live with what happened for the rest of their days.
11-11-11, 05:58 PM
#34
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I do know, though, that outside of movie stunts, truck drivers take tight turns very slowly, and the cab swings very wide...it's the trailer, following along later, that cuts close to corners. And that is a very dangerous place to be, as Zirger726 pointed out above, esp as it can look like there is room and time to get by, at the beginning of the truck's turn.
There are a few times that a bike lane encourages cyclist to pull up alongside a truck and because the trucks do not have a convex mirror, the driver runs over the cyclist with the back of the truck (like the cyclist and cement truck driver in Portland).
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11-14-11, 11:35 PM
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On Sunday I passed a woman riding on the sidewalk pulling a trailer WITH HER YOUNGER SON(her two older children were riding their own bikes) IN THE TRAILER!!!
While they weren't on the road, I immediately thought about the deceased woman in this thread. Had she been on the road and hit during the upcoming right turn she had to make, both she and her younger son might have ended up dead.
While they weren't on the road, I immediately thought about the deceased woman in this thread. Had she been on the road and hit during the upcoming right turn she had to make, both she and her younger son might have ended up dead.
11-15-11, 11:39 AM
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On Sunday I passed a woman riding on the sidewalk pulling a trailer WITH HER YOUNGER SON(her two older children were riding their own bikes) IN THE TRAILER!!! While they weren't on the road, I immediately thought about the deceased woman in this thread. Had she been on the road and hit during the upcoming right turn she had to make, both she and her younger son might have ended up dead.
While they weren't on the road, I immediately thought about the deceased woman in this thread. Had she been on the road and hit during the upcoming right turn she had to make, both she and her younger son might have ended up dead.
11-15-11, 12:32 PM
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No charges laid
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...t-funeral.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...t-funeral.html
11-23-11, 04:49 PM
#39
Resident smartass.
Was listening to the radio (Local Country station) at work one night (one of the infinite;y RARE times I have to work nights) and every Sun, they have a program called "Truckers Radio". It's geared towards truckers obviously. BUT... On this night, they were discussing this very crash. It was actually non biased too. The fellow in Toronto admitted he's basically in the same boat as us, information wise. The authorities are being as tight lipped as they can possibly be. They talked about that for a bit and then credited all the truckers who DO make the effort to give cyclists as much room as possible, especially given how air moves around them (the trucks). It was really interesting. Too bad I can't find it (the specific story) online.
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