Chris516

Yes, The 'I have a right to be on the road' mentality, runs the full spectrum.

While I 'take the lane'. I don't intentionally cause a situation of traffic backing up behind me. At the same time, if I am going the speed limit on a two-lane blacktop where passing is too dangerous, motorists' just have to wait. The traffic code here gives motorists' the right to pass over the double-yellow line if the motorist can see a good distance. But, If I am in the busy city center, that is a two-lane blacktop with on-street parking. So, There is no room to pass.

adablduya

there was a heated debate here on BF a few weeks ago on that very point. personally, i would argue that the overtaking vehicle is responsible for not initiating a pass that cannot be safely completed. i futher maintain that the overtaken vehicle has no duty to foster the safe completion of an overtaking vehicle's pass OTHER THAN TO NOT speed up in an attempt to inhibit the overtaking car from competing the pass safely.

of course, self-preservation can dictate slowing down to allow the safe pass to occur. but generally, i maintain my points above.

Notso_fastLane

This. If I could wear my full leathers (which I wear all the time on the motorcycle, even in 100+ degree weather) and not have a heat stroke, I would!

wphamilton

The bolded part would be correct.

However, all drivers finding themselves in a situation where there is a possible collision, regardless of how it came about, do have a duty to facilitate the other drivers' extrication from the situation. If that means slowing down, you have a duty to do so. You can't just hold your speed and position and watch it cause a collision if you could have done anything to avoid it. Slow down, dive to the shoulder, whatever it takes that has an acceptable risk.

genec

True to some extent... and indeed SHARING does mean sharing.

However, while cyclists should do their part to also make sure other road users reach their destinations efficiently, cyclists are less motivated to do some of the real selfish stuff out there due primarily to the fact of "basic save your skin mentality." A cyclist is simply never going to take out a motorist or a long haul trucker. So a cyclist's selfishness is limited to what they can get away with, without really having the safety of a cage or the power of speed or mass to intimidate.

A cyclist's only power is small size and maneuverability; the ability to dodge and weave... not the ability to "punch."

genec

The fact is you did have a situation you did not see developing... no you did not get harmed, this time... and yes, a cyclist's total immersion into the whole environment does give us an "edge" at times... but that edge may not be enough... and those fast 6 lane arterial roads are no place to have a gap in situational awareness.

I'm just saying... stuff does happen.

genec

AND as you mentioned you are going the speed limit... so where is the justification to want to pass? Yes, we all know that some motorists will speed and pass regardless... but if you are doing the SL... there is NO need to pass and no "right" to pass.

Chris516

I don't worry about it not being enough. Because I am focused on the traffic, coming from all directions. The aforementioned example I gave. Did not scare me. It ticked me off!!! Because, It was obvious the motorist didn't like being behind cyclist, regardless of what lane I was in.
Of course there is no need to pass, if I am doing the speed limit. But they will try to pass, regardless.

kickstart

So, if I'm driving a semi down a 2 lane road, you're riding your bike, and an bonehead motorist decides to do a dangerous pass, you're cool with me doing nothing even if YOU end up getting splattered across 3 zip codes?

Sorry to disappoint you but that's not going to happen. As a professional driver I know the primary duty of every road user is safety, failing to maintain safety through inaction is negligence. No rule or law relives us of that obligation.

B. Carfree

I fully agree that all drivers/cyclists/whatevers have a moral obligation to do what they can to prevent a collision. However, here in Oregon there is no legal obligation to do so. That said, the only person I ever heard of applying our perverse vehicle code in this way and getting away with it eventually did it again, only in that later instance he was wrong and a female cyclist is dead because of that. Unfortunately, our DA is notorious for ignoring these sort of things and he got a mere slap on the wrist.

wphamilton

That really weird. Why wasn't the statute for careless driving invoked, and the requirement of the overtaken vehicle to yield to the right? Generally speaking the statutes regarding careless and reckless driving confer the legal responsibility to avoid collisions. But it's usually explicit.

dynodonn 

Myself and other bicycle commuters in my locale, average around 15 to 18 mph on flat ground......wearing leathers at those speeds would be a huge overkill anyway.

turbo1889

I would a agree that while there is not always a legal obligation for a cyclist taking the lane on a narrow two lane road to pull off the road at a safe spot and allow a long line of cars backed up behind him to proceed because they have been unable to pass (the slow moving vehicle laws that require this do apply to bicycles in some states and do not apply to bicycles in other states) there is a moral obligation if one actually has any level of respect for other people and isn't a total jerk. If this happens to me I do pull off the road for a few seconds to let them by when a safe spot to do so comes up.

BUT, it is incredibly how little this situation actually does develop. Namely a narrow two lane that necessitates lane taking where the oncoming traffic is so thick that they can't find a spot to pass such that a line of multiple vehicles starts to back up behind me. About the only time it happens with any regularity for me is in-town where on 25-mph or lower speed limit roads where it is either:

----- Bumper to bumper traffic period regardless of whether I was there or not and I'm pretty much keeping up with the vehicle in front of me if not tailgating them myself so its not me that is the one holding things up but quite the opposite in-fact and I've been known to mutter and mumble about it load enough for a few automobile drivers around me with their windows rolled down to hear me and comment on my complaints about a bunch of really slow fat metal boxes clogging up the whole darn road and slowing me way down.
----- Or I'm doing 20+ mph in a 25-mph zone (how I ride in such areas, all out as fast as I can go which is usually just barely under the 25-mph speed limit unless I have to climb a hill or there is a slow car in front of me slowing me down) at which point I feel no moral obligation to get out of the way of the usual crop of speeders who want to go 35+ mph in the 25-mph zone.

On the narrow higher speed roads where I have to take the lane because the road isn't wide enough its pretty rare that most can't pass me within 15 seconds or less so its rare to develop a build up behind me. They just have to pause and slow down for a few seconds until the next safe gap to pass me, that's all. Not an unreasonable thing to expect them to do by any means.


I mutter and mumble when they slow me down, and I'm sure they mutter and mumble when I slow them down. But I don't do stupid crazy dangerous stunts trying to get around them and go fast regardless showing zero respect for their rights, health, or lives.

If I do get a line of them formed up behind me because they can't pass on a high speed road, I do take the opportunity when a safe spot comes up to pull off the road and wait 15 seconds or less to let them by and at least in my state because the slow moving vehicle law is a motor vehicle only law I'm technically under no legal obligation to do so. And yet some of them think they have a right to kill me because they aren't willing to wait that much for a safe spot to pass. Especially horrendous considering that safe passing is a mandatory legal requirement for all and that speed is only a privilege secondary to the right to travel safely without others criminally endangering you on the public right of way.

FBinNY 

Like you, I'm less concerned with the legal obligation, and more concerned with the requirements of common courtesy. I rarely (just about never) have to pull off the road, and can almost always find a section of road where I can "gutter hug", or ride the door lane for a stretch, if necessary and allow passing with low speed differences. (they've already matched my speed, so it's not like they're going to fly by at 60). I find allowing cars to pass at the earliest opportunity preferable to having them lose impatience and pass dangerously.

As to how often it happens, I suspect that will vary by area. Our eastern roads tend to be narrower and busier than many other places, and it's easy to back up traffic on climbs, or on busy roads in urban and suburban areas.

turbo1889

For me the door zone is almost an absolute never do that, not just for me, for any poor sap that could step out in front of me. Clobbering a ped. while on my bike would put me in the position of the fast moving vehicle hitting the more vulnerable slower user. Door zone is only a last resort to escape from an attack. Plus pretty much up here if there are parked cars on the edge of the road and resulting door zone, its not more then a 25-mph speed limit on that road and unless its uphill or a heck of stiff head wind I can go fast enough to be considered going fast enough to be close enough to the speed limit for someone who is not a speed-wannabe-criminal to have no reason to try to pass me anyway.

I will "gutter hug" as you so call it but more like ride in the gravel/dirt strip to the edge of the pavement between the pavement and grass when I get slowed way down when climbing a hill because I really feel for people behind me in that kind of situation and riding gravel/dirt makes little difference in slowing me down any further as far as riding convenience or have a significant negative safety effect at such lower speeds. But some roads are so narrow and with such bad conditions off to the edges of the road that sometimes I can't even do that.

Long story short, for me pulling off at a safe spot and letting them by is more of an option and trying to continue moving and allow a too close pass in a tight situation is less of an option. I've just been burned too many times and have permanent scars on my left arm to prove it. Anyway you slice it a contact pass is a too close pass and up here "getting sliced" is what we call it. But as I said rarely does pulling off become necessary, it isn't that hard to pass a cyclist safely and doesn't require a huge gap or distance like trying to pass another car. I know from being on both sides. I do agree that in other areas you might have more traffic on narrower roads so getting a gap to pass safely could be more of an issue but up here more often then not if they can't get a gap within 15-seconds or less then its not a situation where they shouldn't be trying to pass anyway even if I was another car going the same speed.

Problem is the motorists who are unwilling to wait even a single second to safely pass and instead try to enforce a "always pass all cyclist immediately no matter what" and/or a "get out of the way or get run off the road" codex or worse yet a "Force all cyclists off road on sight as a matter of territorial enforcement" codex. I've found I fair better with them taking the lane then not. But I still try to be a decent guy regardless and not be a jerk:

----- Don't take the lane on a road wide enough to share side by side especially on a road with a paved shoulder edge of sufficient width
----- When taking the lane make best effort for best possible sustained speed (20-mph or so for me depending on conditions with pedal only bike; add 5-10 mph to that for a human/motor-assist hybrid powered bike)
----- Be more accommodating on the uphill sections that slow you way down and be willing to ride the dirt strip at 7-mph in order to get sufficient safe passing clearance rather then insist on riding on the pavement in order to gain that little bit of rolling resistance reduction that allows 8-mph while climbing (some of the steep hill grades around here will indeed slow you down that much) and either being on the right in a too narrow situation risking a close pass or be taking the lane at that freaking low of a speed. When climbing a big hill at that low of speed it really makes very little difference between riding pavement or dirt/gravel.
----- When taking the lane if a line of cars starts to back up behind you check your speed compared to the speed limit and if your considerably lower then when a safe spot comes up pull off and wait for a few seconds to let them go by. If on the other hand they are just a bunch of wannabe speeders and your at, slightly over, or just slightly under the speed limit then hold your course.
----- BUT if the road is too narrow to share side by side do take the lane. Accommodate as you can in order to not be a jerk, but insisting on your right to travel safely and not yielding to terrorism is not, in and of itself, being a jerk.

That is how I ride, sounds like you are more willing to allow yourself to be squeezed and risk being sliced then I am and you play "catch and release" on narrow roads accordingly. Not really an option for me, when it comes down to it, the rare several cars that might back up in a line behind me on a narrow two lane high speed road situation I'd rather pull off occasionally at safe points and stop for a few seconds to let them by.

Been sliced too many times and even if you discount the passing speed issue with the catch and release method there are still issues. I've tried to be nice before and had cases when I released instead of just going around me they pulled up beside me and then deliberately turned their right front fender into me as the thanks I got for doing so. The last one who did it that where I finally learned to stop doing that altogether it was literally a single one second time interval between catch and attempted release. Literally released her as soon as she slowed down behind me. And she still decided to do a deliberate shove the cyclist off the edge of the road and down off the embankment into the ditch below attack. NEVER AGAIN, the only catch and release I do is pulling all the way off the road often at a point where it looks like I just turned off the road as if I intended too anyway.

turbo1889

Realized you might take my last post as a criticism as to how you ride rather then me explaining why I must often do different. To clarify:

You might not have the problem of your releases trying to bite you when you play "catch and release". Good for you, and shows a higher quality grade of catch your dealing with. I do have that problem and have learned not to play that game anymore.

The ones I have to deal with they often take the act of release the same as two dogs facing off and growling at each other but not yet engaged in actual combat until one makes the mistake of yielding in a clearly subservient move at which point the other seizes the initiative and does its best to finish the job and run the one who blinked completely out of its territory. Where as holding the line and not bowing out they do growl at you as they pass but don't try to finish the job of running you completely out of their territory (as they see it). Play catch and release up here and when it comes to the release step you can get a very primitive territorial dispute canine response play and they take it as a cue for them to finish the job and run you completely off the road. It will not surprise me if one of these days a driver rolls down the window and instead of a garbled yell they literally bark and growl at me and they ain't got no dog in the car with them.

FBinNY 

I think you and I are using the same play book. Th details of how we manage specific conditions and circumstances are less important, than the fact that we make a serious effort to balance our right of way and personal safety, with the needs and wants of other road users.

Possibly one reason I'm willing to ride in closer quarters, is that I'm in New York, where it's a game of inches, and you're in Montana and everyone is used to more room.

I'm not into having hard set rules, or telling others how to ride. I take each situation as it comes, and apply Plans A-E based on what's available and workable at the time.

FBinNY 

Not at all. As I posted earlier, I considered it a local/individual adaptation rather a question of better or worse. What works for some, won't work for all, and may even not work for many.

turbo1889

Yah, that's quite true.

Reminds me of when I mentioned a while back in another thread that I bicycle on the interstate freeways up here (on the shoulder edge mainly but on a few narrow bridges without shoulder edges do wait for a good break in traffic and then take the right lane across the bridge making a show of pedaling like mad for the viewing benefit of anyone coming up behind) and some of the guys from California just about had a heart attack at the very idea. Up here its not much more dangerous then any other high speed road and usually actually better because of there almost always being a nice wide good shoulder edge, down there it apparently would be equivalent to nearly instant suicide.

JoeyBike

This action puts you in the top 99 percentile of cyclists. You were paying attention to the world around you when you noticed a potential safety issue coming up behind so you focused intently on the road ahead for the catalyst (car coming the opposite way) to pop into the picture - which shows you have insight and can process a "possible progression of events" before they happen. When the dire events begin to unfold your previous vigilance afforded you enough time to react without extra thought (all of the processing had been done before the actual danger) and make your escape.

Nicely done sir! I can only say that time on the open road will create "synchronicity" of traffic again and again. Sounds like you have the mental tools to deal with it.

Salute!

FBinNY 

Laws vary, but in many US states, and countries, the vehicle being overtaken has an OBLIGATION to slow and possibly move to the right to make room for the passing vehicle if necessary to avoid a collision.

Life on the road isn't "well he made the bed, let him lie on it". It's all to easy to misjudge speed and distance and initiate an inopportune pass. In any case, though you may feel the fool driver has it coming, what about the guy up ahead?.

If you're being passed, whether you like it or not, do what's necessary to ensure not only your own safety, but that of everyone around you. Like it or not, reality trumps rights every time.

kickstart

While traffic laws and rules vary by state and country, the core principle they are all based on is that they never give us as individuals the right of way, they only define when we must give way to others. Also no law or rule obligates or allows us to do anything dangerous.

FBinNY 

You might have misread my post. The obligation I referenced is for the being passed vehicle to give way so the passing vehicle can get back into the lane if it's necessary to avoid a possible collision. Likewise the oncoming vehicle has to slow and possibly move to their right to avoid a crash.

I don't know which states have this and which don't, but many do. Some states have a lower legal obligation, namely not to accelerate once the passing car is out there, but even if the law doesn't mandate slowing or moving right, the least bit of concern for the oncoming driver would have you doing this.

Regardless of whether the pass is legal or inappropriate, once the passing car is out there and there's a risk of collision with an oncoming car, the being passed vehicle has to do his part to make room to avoid the crash.


As you correctly point out, this isn't a right of way issue, it's a common sense issue.

kickstart

I am in agreement with you, I just put it awkwardly.
What I was trying to point out is that even if there isn't a specific law addressing a particular situation or is limited in scope, we are still obligated to do whatever is necessary to maintain everyone's safety, and doesn't relieve us of our basic responsibilities.

turbo1889

Any obligation a vehicle that is being passed may have to avoid a collision may have.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE USED AS JUSTIFICATION FOR THE OVERTAKING VEHICLE INITIATING A DANGEROUS, IRRESPONSIBLE, DISRESPECTFUL, AND/OR MALICIOUS PASS TO BEGIN WITH.

Yes, if such a situation develops then you as the one being passed should do what you can to prevent a collision. But that does not relieve the overtaking vehicle from the primary responsibility for creating the situation in the first place contrary to popular belief among the speed demon "get out of my way or suffer the consequences" crowd we unfortunately have running loose and for the most part unchecked on our public right of ways.