JoeyBike

I find my bike commute far less hateful than commuting the same by car. However, on the Love-Hate continuum, my bike commute is a long, long way from the Love end of the thing. As my cycling-only neighbor once told me, it's simply a matter of "I gotta get over there, and this is what I got."

I am not the only one, although I confess I only know three other cyclists in NOLA (one recently moved to DC, the other back to Boston) who ride that way all the time. Now there are only two of us left as far as I know. And thanks to the recent improvements in cycling infrastructure I can mostly avoid those "bike messenger" conditions. End of an era I think. Good riddance too.

spare_wheel

i look at the steady decline in motoring among the young and see the end of a different era.

dicktill

Hi turbo1889,

Sorry to belabor this, but sure would like to know where in Montana (or elsewhere out West) I have to be super-careful.

Thanks, Dick

turbo1889

Not a problem, sorry I forgot to reply to your inquiry. Just one of those things that slipped through as the thread ballooned in page number.

I mainly cycle around my home state of Montana (that's where most of my friends, business connections, and relatives are (listed in that order for a reason) remember I'm a transportation cyclist primarily not so much a pleasure cyclist) but have gone into neighboring U.S. States and Canadian Providences as well, in order of level of experience: Idaho, Northern (especially North-Western) Wyoming, Southern Alberta, South-Eastern British Columbia, Southern Saskatchewan, North-Western South Dakota, Western North Dakota, and Eastern Oregon.


The greatest area of risk for a cyclist in my state of Montana to experience deliberate "territorial aggression" against them while on the roads I would say is the rural open areas of western Montana down in an arc into the southern middle of the state about as far east as Bozeman, the lowest risk for cyclist encountering such deliberate "territorial aggression" against them while on the roads in Montana I would say is the rural open areas of eastern Montana up into an arc to the middle north of the state until you come to the eastern edge of Glacier National Park. All the small dots of urban areas, the small towns and the big towns both east and west sides of the state are halfway inbetween on the risk scale.

There are of course certain particular hot spots and cold spots I'm aware of specifically but generally over all that is how it goes across my State. Sad but true. Using that as my standard of comparison for neighboring areas I've also cycled. Idaho in general is like Western Montana, rural areas are equally high risk and the risk goes down to just middle level risk factor for deliberate "territorial aggression" against you as a cyclist whenever you get into an urban area. Northern Wyoming, North-Western South Dakota, and Eastern Oregon are pretty low risk in the rural open areas just like Eastern Montana and the risk goes up to middle risk factor not down when you get into the scattered little spots of urban areas. North Dakota used to have a similar risk profile to Eastern Montana but unfortunately with the fracking boom its gotten a risk profile more and more like Western Montana.

Now the three Canadian Providences I have experience with I have found a considerable striking absence of the deliberate "territorial aggression" I've gotten used too dealing with but I would say that the careless factor is higher. The Canadian motorists I've dealt with in those areas don't seem to be willing to engage in any deliberate "territorial aggression" towards cyclists trying to force them to get off of "their roads", they just don't seem to care. Which is a double edge sword that cuts both ways, they don't care that your there and use the road too but they also don't care about anyone but themselves either.


Long Story Short, if I were to offer advise to some touring cyclist who was going from east coast to west coast or vic-a-versa across the northern top of the U.S. they might be better served by ducking around Idaho, Western Montana, and North Dakota by either going up and over on the Canadian side or dropping down under through South Dakota and Wyoming. If they were touring through Montana from east to west I would strongly advise them not to cross the rocky mountain divide using Hwy-2 that crosses the continental divide along the south edge of Glacier National Park. The road infrastructure situation on that narrow winding mountain pass is not good for mixing both cyclist and motorist traffic together in a situation with highly territorial aggressive motorists, its one of the "hot spots" in my opinion that should be avoided. Even if they were to widen up that road to provide consistent wide shoulder edges even then it would not be the best choice due the territorial aggression levels in that area. Believe it or not one of the best passes to cross the continental divide on as a cyclist is to ride the wide shoulder edge of I-90 (totally legal in Montana) and cross the continental divide at the Homestake Pass. Yes, riding the shoulder edge of the interstate does take a certain adjustment in technique especially when it comes to wisely handling each of the over/under passes and the exit and entry ramp situations but over all more often then not when I need to cycle across the state from east to west that's the route I prefer to take and for the most part its of considerable lower risk then the alternatives both overall and specifically for not being the target of a "My road !!! Get OFF !!!" deliberate territorial aggression from some motorists.

In addition it should be noted that the primitive territorial aggression capability is deeply ingrained in the entire human species and automobile operators with a "cager" mind set everywhere can be found who believe the roads are exclusively theirs and have at least territorial aggression feelings towards all other public right of way users whether they by pedestrians or cyclists or even motorcyclists and yes even other automobile operators. It's just a matter of how deep and wide those territorial aggression feelings go and how willing they are to act on them and how much they fear any consequences for doing so that makes the difference. I've heard horror stories from other hot spots around the country as well, quite a few out of Florida to name but one other example. So its certainly not just a Montana or Western issue but I do certainly agree that this area is certainly warmer then other places some areas down right hot spots.

dicktill

Hi turbo1889,

Thanks so much for your detailed, albeit somewhat scary, response! I should have explained that I wasn't planning on bike-touring that area of the country as in a coast-to-coast trip. My wife and I have a small camper-van, and plan to hit Yellowstone, Glacier, and many other scenic spots shortly, and I will bring my bike and take some 20-60 mile rides here and there. Just wanted to know which areas might be "less safe" (i.e., there is some risk everywhere). I'm fortunate that in my rural area of Western NY State, the roads and shoulders are pretty good, and there aren't TOO many outwardly aggressive drivers like you describe. Run into them once a week or so, and of course, lotsa unattentive ones. That's bad enough, but what you describe in Western Montana in just way too much!

And no problem with not getting back to me right away; I do that all the time. : )

Regards, Dick

Chris516

I agree. I find commuting by bike, far better than, being in a car.

dicktill

BTW, does anyone have any input on cycling in the Western National Parks, such as Yellowstone & Glacier? I know you have to watch out for the guys towing big camper/RV trailers that forget how wide the trailer and/or their mirrors are, but other than that are things pretty slow and easy?

Thanks, Dick

howsteepisit

My experience in Yellowstone is cycling in the early spring when cars are not allowed for a month or so, then via car in the summer and winter. I would not cycling Yellowstone in summer, the roads are narrow and mostly shoulder-less, and the drivers totally incompetent and distracted. And, BTW, Yellowstone may be my favorite place on earth. However, Grand Teton is more cycle friendly and ya might meet up w/a moose!

JoeyBike

Avoid July 4 thru Labor Day on a bike tour. Or limit yourselves to early morning hours for day rides. Otherwise Yellowstone gets five stars IMO. Maybe with the price of fuel going up thanks to the whole Iraq situation there will be less traffic this summer. Yellowstone is not close to any population centers so it costs a fortune to drive there from almost anywhere.

Chris516

Yes, They are equal. Because of how both cyclists' and motorcyclists' are perceived, as a whole. I wasn't saying and/or implying motorcycling is more dangerous. While I have never owned a motorcycle. I have ridden on the back of one. When my father had a Suzuki GS750 back in the late 1970's, and early 1980's.

905

Seems to boil down to It won't work because it makes motorists mad. While it's true that an impatient driver is more likely to be a dangerous one, it's rather a self-serving argument from the point of view of the one with all the horsepower. And I speak as someone who often moves in to let others pass, depending on the circumstances.

Same here. What is wrong with me???

Nothing to add, except your post made this image pop into my head. Imagine being able to put all the components into the slots, tap your toes in impatience for a few minutes, then presto:

turbo1889

About Yellowstone and Glacier parks specifically my experience backs up what the others have been saying, when the roads are only open to cyclists, peds., and horse back riders and the snow clearing crews in the spring they are great (although you still have to watch out for some inconsiderate or worse moves sometimes by some of those operating the heavy equipment and/or driving their automobiles up to the work sites but they are few and far between) no worries.

But in the Summer when the roads are open the risk factor can be a lot higher, not so much from deliberate malicious territorial aggression but rather a "fail to care" situation. I wouldn't go so far as to say don't do it, I'll personally travel almost any road anywhere by bicycle and I wouldn't necessarily consider those two national parks to be the most risky propositions.

The one main exception I would make to that statement would be the "Going To The Sun" road in Glacier. Riding that road on bicycle going uphill is one of the last options I would take not just due to the risk factor but due to the fact that I actually do care about other people and in many areas on that road it is too narrow for a threesome so a cyclist must take the lane to be riding in a half-way safe and sane manner. That combined with its short sight-lines, heavy traffic, and steep grade means if I were to travel it uphill by bicycle in the Summer when its open to automobile traffic I would have a hug line of very, very, very angry automobile drivers backed up behind me crawling along at 10-mph or less for hours !!! I'm not mean enough to do that. There is a shuttle bus service that you can ride up to the top and they do have bike racks on the bus - I USE IT !!! Riding that road going down hill is not a problem provided you have a bike with excellent brakes and are a good rider, you can hold your position in traffic downhill no problem and if you ride like your a motorcycle keeping up with everyone else on the downhill automobile drivers rarely take issue. And of course when the road is closed in the spring to automobile traffic and they are still clearing the snow at the top then I'll ride it both up and down on a bike.

When its Summer and open to automobile traffic, don't ride up hill on "Going to the Sun" road you will either have to hug the edge with your elbow nearly rubbing up against a rock wall you could get squashed against or on the other side of the pass you can look down and see shear cliff drop offs a foot or so to the right of you with automobiles including buses and motor-homes and such trying to pass you with oncoming traffic trying to squash you up against the rock wall or push you off the edge of the cliff. Or you can take the lane and end up with a long line of automobiles crawling behind you unable to pass and mad as hell for hours while you climb the grade, even pulling off in the wide spots that still don't work either. Use the shuttle bus service with the bike racks its well worth it and then if your confident in your skill and your brakes you can ride down taking the lane.

JoeyBike

When I biked "Going to the Sun" in 1989 cyclists were required to be to the top of the pass by 9:00AM. We set our alarms for 3AM, it was daylight by 4:00AM and we made it to the top of the pass long before the deadline. I have no idea if that is still the requirements, but you still want to get over the top by 9AM. Once to the top you may descend whenever you like since you will likely be passing cars on the way down.

CrankyOne

Perhaps. I was thinking more like 15 mph bikes and 50 mph cars aren't compatible or bikes aren't dangerous, cars are, why endanger bike riders by mixing them up with cars.

turbo1889

In My Personal Experience:


----- On roads with 25-mph or lower speed limits bicycles and cars mix just fine and VC works and works well regardless of how thick automobile and bicycle traffic are so long as everyone follows the rules of the road and respects each other and actually drives not like a total jerk.


----- Anything faster its a matter of the level of automobile traffic and the faster the road the thinner the automobile traffic and to a certain extent the thinner the cyclist traffic as well has to be for VC to continue to work well. Thus, in real world practical application VC on high speed roadways turns out to be an undesirable coaping mechanism that cyclist must unfortunately but necessarily use as a result of insufficient infrastructure to fully accommodate both cyclist and other vulnerable users safety and motorists strong desire to exercise their privilege of speed.










So, as to "VC cycling working until it works and then it don't work":


On slow speed (25-mph or less) roads that isn't true, but on high speed roads unless the roads are widened to provide sufficient additional width it is indeed true that VC is only a coaping mechanism.


I’d much rather ride on a good shoulder edge on a 65-mph roadway, when there is not a good shoulder edge then VC taking the lane is something I do because I must not something I do because it’s preferable. On the other hand, on 25-mph or less speed roads unless its going up a steep hill VC taking the lane is indeed preferable in most cases.

turbo1889

In response to JoeyBike:

I've personally never attempted to ride up the "Going to the Sun" on bicycle during the Summer when it's open to automobile traffic. I've only ridden up it on bicycle when it was closed to all but official automobile traffic in the Spring. In Summer I always pay the few dollars to ride the shuttle bus up and put my bike in the bike rack and then ride down on the bike. What I know of riding up the road on bicycle when its closed to all but official automobile traffic in the Spring and some of the cyclist I've seen trying to bike up it and the traffic issues and danger to them that results I wouldn't attempt it.

Although what you suggest about doing it in the very early morning hours might work out okay. I'm not familiar with any rule to that effect but that may be because I've never attempted riding up that road on bicycle except in the Spring when its closed to all but official automobile traffic. In the Summer I always take the bus to the top and ride the bike down, which is very fun by the way but you better have good brakes !!!

Rollfast

If you burn the spokes neither butter nor ketchup helps though.