cny-bikeman

Really? You can cook a meal from scratch much cheaper than buying one at any restaurant, following a recipe is fairly easy, and the equipment inexpensive if not already on-hand. The darkroom analogy is a bit closer, as one has to invest in equipment and learn some terminology and procedures. But once you have the equipment and learn the techniques you do essentially the same thing with some variation over and over, and you save money with each iteration. With a bike assembly you have to learn a great deal about compatibility between parts and frame, as well as the biomechanics of the rider/bike interface, spend far more time spec'ing, sourcing and ordering than working on the bike, and use tools and techniques that are not needed very often afterward.

I don't see the satisfaction in doing a scratch build over that one can have in doing a complete rebuild of one's own bike. Somehow building a new bike from scratch has become the penultimate goal for many, but in truth relatively few of the most experienced riders and mechanics have done so.

geehue

You're no doubt right that doing a rebuild would have been a valuable learning experience. I might have experienced just as much satisfaction or maybe more from doing that, and it is something that I very well may do at some point. You (and, according to you, other experienced mechanics and cyclists) don't get gratification from building from scratch. I get that; you don't see value in doing it.

But what I don't get why those who DO get gratification from having built their own bikes have somehow done something unwise or (as you seemed to suggest in an earlier post) are doing it for reasons of vanity. I don't think it is necessarily unwise or wrong to begin a project or without having an expert-level understanding before one starts. Yes, you make mistakes; yes, it will cost you, and yes, there's a risk of failure.

Just because I don't see the value in something doesn't mean there isn't any value in it. I don't understand why my daughter is fascinated by (and spends her money on) Japanese Anime; there's no appeal in it for me. But I think it would be kind of churlish of me to dismissively say that she's doing something wrong.

striknein

Some people enjoy building bikes, some enjoy buying them, and some enjoy riding them. No group is "wrong," as the whole point for 90% of cyclists is to enjoy the bicycle.

I just completed my first 100% scratch build after several years of wrenching on bikes at the coop, as well as flipping my own bikes on Craigslist. I needed those years, both to learn how everything on a bike goes together, as well as how to use the tools I would need to complete assembly. When I was ready to do my build, I'd already gathered all the tools I'd need, so my only expense was in the purchase of parts and the time I spent assembling. If you don't know how to properly use the tools you need to build a bike, you could end up damaging the frame or components. You could also build something that isn't safe to ride.

It takes an awful long time to learn what you want out of a bike. In my case, it also took a lot of trial-and-error, especially as it relates to fit. Online calculators can only do so much; only butt-in-saddle time can teach you what you need to know about being comfortable on a bike. Considerations must also be made for the type of riding you plan to do; whether it's a road bike, mountain bike, BMX, or whatever, there's enough variety and sub-categories that a person can spend months just picking out the right frame.

Say you've learned how to wrench and you have a reasonable idea of how a bike should fit. Now you need to figure out what parts to buy. You need to know what's compatible with the frame you selected, and you need to figure out all the bits and bobs you'll also need to get those parts working. An example: I built a cyclocross bike with cantilever brakes and integrated brake/shift levers. So I needed cable stops, adjusters, and cable hangers. If you buy a frame meant for disc brakes, you sometimes need adapter mounts for the calipers. You need to know whether the frame is compatible with hydraulic brakes or mechanical. Many of these small parts are easy to forget or overlook when you're planning the build, until you get to the point in assembly where you need them and can't continue until you get them. In some cases, you don't even get the opportunity to figure that stuff out until the frame is sitting in the workstand.

I say none of this to encourage or discourage completing a scratch build. Personally, I find the process of bike assembly to be very satisfying. You likely will too, if you're mechanically inclined, patient, and start the build with the expectation that you may make mistakes. Just be aware that the process requires some combination of experience, money, and time. If you're lacking in one area, you'll need an extra investment from the other two to complete the project.

cny-bikeman

I did not say doing so was unwise, merely pointed out the possible imbalance between input and result, and as for the vanity issue, it was another poster that said that bragging rights (external validation) were "kind of the point."

geehue

I was the poster who repeated the words "bragging rights." I did that because you used them in the immediately prior post, suggesting that you thought those who built their own bikes did so not for any practical reason but instead for "bragging rights." The point of my post was to suggest that what motivates people -- what you referred to as "bragging rights" -- is actually a sense of SELF-satisfaction. You're the one who first brought up "bragging rights", and you, not I, have now brought up the concept of "external validation." I never mentioned it. You seem determined to dismiss the motivations of anybody who doesn't share your view.

You also did specifically use the term unwise: "It's unwise to build anything you can buy already built if you don't know what you need or even how to tell what you need, don't know how to do it, and don't have the tools to complete it." To me that seems a poverty of imagination. I think people can learn by doing, and the most worthwhile endeavors involve things that you can't predict or plan in advance.

I think, whether you wanted to or not, you discouraged and dismissed the OP's motive because you couldn't understand why (s)he wanted to do what to me is a perfectly understandable thing -- make a bicycle his or her own in a way that wouldn't be possible by buying it already fully built. Again, I suspect that this is because you are already an expert on the subject and for you there is no challenge at all. For the rest of us, though, it might just be a big deal.

3alarmer 

...basic economics. The guys who do this professionally are almost always poorly paid, thus tight with a buck. don't ask me how I know this.

CliffordK

On the Craigslist or Co-op used market, it can be pretty much grab-bag, of whatever is available. Perhaps a little more specificity with E-Bay searches.

On the new market, however, you can be very specific with your purchases.

If building wheels, for example, I will only use Stainless spokes. Usually a decent hub, and while I've done both straight and butted spokes, I'm now moving to mainly butted spokes.

I'm always amazed at what otherwise should be a nice 700c wheelset from a major manufacturer will have straight spokes, or a very cheap hub.

I'm now using all stainless brake and shifter cables, and generally add a little more care here and there in the build.

A bike manufacturer might do mostly 105 parts, but then toss in a few Tiagra or Sora level components. You don't have to do that.

SquidPuppet

IME, this is not accurate at all. Many good bike manufacturers offer frame sets for this exact reason. I'd even say that today vs yesteryear, scratch building is far more popular, to the point of flourishing.

BMX racers scratch build custom bikes because they want it to suit their riding style and aesthetic desires. It's super common there.

Mountain bike riders and racers do the same thing, for the same reasons.

Tourers as well because their needs are so specific to their journeys.

C&V is ALL about scratch building. Finding the "Grail" frame and then sourcing all the period correct components.

And in the SS/FG and track world, I can tell you that scratch building is a huge part of the culture.

There are even forums with big membership and traffic numbers dedicated to custom building from scratch.

Sure, most people buy a complete bike from and LBS. But I don't think scratch building bikes is the niche hobby you think it is.

cny-bikeman

There are probably thousands who have truly built from scratch - but there are millions of serious riders, which is why I said "relatively few." Point is that many of the people who have the most expertise and resources still do not do it all that often. The reason is that there is a very wide selection of bikes available, many of the parts and frames are not that different from each other, and it's relatively easy to change out the things that are most critical to change relative to usage and the rider/bike interface. I changed the handlebars, stem, saddle and tires on my last bike, and gearing is also pretty easy to alter. I can't imagine having a much better bike for even twice the price. Yes, if I had $3000 to blow I might just spec a custom frame, as I know exactly what geometry works for me and I'd like to have a custom paint job to look at rather than my bike's boring brown. But at under $1000 for my bike after trading out a few components and selling the leftovers I have both more money and riding time than if I did a scratch build. I assembled the bike, made the changes myself, and checked the hub bearings as well. One advantage of buying from REI was that there was no problem in ordering an unassembled bike.

If someone wants to do a scratch build go ahead. I may seem like a naysayer, but many times people are not realistic about what is required and the level of benefit.

RubeRad

You've already gotten plenty of right answers above (as well as some bickering between subjective views -- you'll have to decide for yourself what you enjoy/prefer).

If it helps, here's the record of my from-scratch build. And many have already called out headset press and fork crown race as the most specialized tools you'd need, SquidPuppet gave a picture, but this is the link that will explain it best. (However, note that it is I think fairly common for a frame/fork that you might buy to already have the headset/crown race already installed, as well as a bottom bracket)

Bottom line, saving money is difficult with a scratch build, so if that's your primary goal you may well be disappointed. But if your primary goal is to learn bikes and have fun assembling one, then building a bike is well within the reach of the marginally handy, and very rewarding. In the end most of the work is just screwing stuff onto a frame, not that hard.

reverborama

I'm also in the camp of "buy a 70's/80's 10-speed, take it all apart, clean it, grease it, and put it all back together to make it ride like new."

First off, go to VeloNews and find the article where they show the dissection of the knockoff carbon frame that supposedly "came from the same mold" as the high end one. Spoiler: It didn't and it was crap. So if the idea of buying a cheap Chinese carbon frame is the driving force behind building a bike, you are making a big mistake.

If, like many of us, you like working on bikes as much as riding them and you want to ride something you made, start with the old 10-speed. You'll have to buy some tools and the parts will add up to a cost that is more than the price of a new bike (because you didn't buy 3,000 of each part to get the discount).

The hardest part is matching all the specs. You need a rear wheel that has the right spacing for the dropouts. You need a stem that matches both the fork and the bars, you need levers that match the bars, you need races that match the head tube and bottom bracket. You need the right spindle width for the crank, you need the right seat tube for the frame. And .1mm is a big deal. I challenge anyone that claims they got everything right the first time they tried to build a bike!

And you'll make mistakes. You'll cut some cable housing a little too short. It really helps to have a couple of bike shops nearby so you can go to a different one to get that replacement housing so the first one doesn't know how you screwed up!

I've enjoyed building and riding bikes I can't buy. I put a Nexus 8-speed rear wheel on a Schwinn Premis frame. I got an old Falcon/Merckx frame and fork and built up a nice bike to ride to the All British Cycle Event. The only thing I haven't done yet is build wheels. Not sure I want to go there since I have a few friends who like to do it and are quite good.

RubeRad

Link

Inpd

Just to followup on this. I did it and it really wasn't that hard. Part of the easiness is that the Breezer Venturi was sold as a frameset and everything was finished.