okalex

Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum and looking to build out my first bike. Just looking for some opinions as to whether this is a good deal. It includes the fork, and an Ultegra headset and seat post. I'm a little concerned about the seat post because I've read that the seat lug can crack with a 27.2mm post. According to the owner, there is no cracking, however, and "normal wear" on paint with a little bit chipped on the chain stay. Any thoughts?

lostarchitect 

We can't see anything in that photo, so... The only answer I can give, given it's a Waterford frame is it's "probably" worth $400. I think the 1200's are Reynolds 753 steel.

Also, you read that a seat lug can crack with a 27.2 post? I don't understand that statement. 27.2 is one of the most common post sizes. If the frame takes that size, it takes that size. I don't see why it would be more likely to crack than any other size.

okalex

Because the frame is meant to take a 27.4mm seatpost, and since 27.2 is such a common size, people often put those in there, causing them to crack the seat lug.

repechage

Some 753 will take a 27.4 seat post, that may be my guess as to the inquiry. No idea if Waterford used that gauge of tubing.

Poguemahone

I've got one, and they do indeed take a 27.4 post. I'd inspect the seat cluster area thoroughly prior to purchase-- you should be able to see any separation.

If you're thinking all-rounder, these bikes are great but for one fact-- the front ends don't have fender eyelets, at least mine doesn't.

$400 is leaning a bit towards bargain, though I don't really follow pricing on these very closely. Mine was 300 or 350 (memory fades sometimes) and I thought I got a deal.

Finding a 27.4 post is not that big a deal. Kalloy still makes them.

StanSeven

It's not the gauge of steel. Waterford designed their frames from many years ago with the 27.4 seat post.

I would take a real close look at the lug. You might want to consider a shim.

gomango

I would just use the correct size seatpost.

Kalloy makes a cheapie in silver for less than $20 that works fine.

On a nice frame like a Waterford I'd likely go for a Thomson Elite, which is a very nice post.

Scooper

Here's the Waterford F.A.Q. on 1200 and 2200 seatposts:

Make sure you have the proper post for the frameset. Up until around the 2000 model year, our models 1200 and 2200 road racing frames require a 27.4mm post. A 27.2mm post often fits - so closely that many Waterford 1200's have been delivered with that post. Unfortunately, with heavy riders, frequent seat height changes and otherwise heavy use, tightening the post can become increasingly difficult. If the problem remains uncorrected, the seat binder bolt may break, the seat lug can deform and seat stays can pop apart from the stress!

All of our other bikes require 27.2mm seatpost and even though some riders use a post so marked, they still have problems tightening properly. Check the actual seatpost diameter. Some reputable manufacturers have delivered posts significantly below the nominal size. They will typically replace the post if it is less than 27.15mm at any point on the post.

When checking seatpost diameters, check at the area around where the seat is clamped - not just at the ends of the post. In at least two cases this year, the seatpost actually measured correctly at the end of the post as well as up near the saddle - in this case 27.2mm for a mountain bike post. But when we measured the area clamped by the rider, we found a diameter of only 26.8mm!

In both cases, the riders were over 200 pounds riding mountain bikes extensively. The posts (which shall remain nameless) were among the lightest available - though clearly under-designed for their application. Consider a more durable post - even if it might be considered at first too heavy. The moral of the story is of course: a gram saved isn't always a gram earned!

This is what the seatstay crack will look like if a 27.2mm seatpost is used on a frame with a seat tube with wall thickness designed for a 27.4mm seatpost.



FWIW, several years ago I paid $550 for a nice 1994 Waterford built Paramount frameset (753 OS tubing) and think I got a bargain.

jiangshi

I paid $600 for a Dave Wages built Waterford 2200 a few (2-3) years ago. That was for a complete bike w/105 9s. This is offered as a reference point. They are nice bikes. A Dave Wages built Waterford is a huge plus.

gomango

That's a great price.

Obviously, that's a superb frameset and 105 works just fine.

RobbieTunes

You stole it, figuratively.

Scooper

Yes, he did. The 2200 used a custom blend of Reynolds 853 and True Temper OX Platinum, and Dave Wages is right up there among the very best framebuilders in the world.

jiangshi

I know it was a better than average deal. It didn't fit and I passed it on to a worthy recipient.

I was not trying to hijack, just give a reference point. There are deals out there if one is patient. Maybe the OP can use my experience as a bargaining point.

unterhausen

I haven't seen too many of these frames, but 2 of the 3 I have seen had a broken seatstay-seat lug joint. If anyone asked me to fix another one, I would probably ask $250 because just re-brazing it didn't really fill me with a feeling that I had effected a permanent fix. Requires more surgery than that IMHO

zukahn1 

Well it might be worth it but where is the matched fork with it worth $350-400 without half those prices.

cs1

I bought my 1995 in 2006. It had a 27.2 seatpost. When it was stripped for repaint the seat tube lug was intact. 753 tubing in general needs a 27.4 seat post. I scored a new Thomson on ebay for mine. $400 is a steal for that kind of bike.

okalex

Thanks for the input, everybody. I went ahead and bought the frame and am super excited to put it together. I'll upload some pics when I get a chance later. Regarding the seatpost, it turns out that the bike had the 27.4mm American Classic post that typically came with these frames, not a 27.2mm Ultegra post that the owner thought it had. So there wasn't any cracking around the seat cluster, and all in all, the bike looks fantastic, apart from a few nicks here and there.

Scooper

Congratulations! You got a deal.

TugaDude

Yep, you got a deal! I have a 1995 edition 1200 with the same American Classic 27.4 post. Like mine a lot.

TugaDude

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...200?highlight=

In case you want to read the thread about my 1200. I ended up putting a new 9 speed cassette on it and lightly used Dura Ace brifters. Works super good.