Catnap 

I have an opportunity to get a Raphael Geminiani track frame as part of a trade. the seller says that it's from 1964. i've spent a while on Google, etc. but cannot identify the lugs. All of the Geminiani bikes I've seen online use more ornate Nervex lugs - these seem a bit different.

Here's a few pictures: can anyone give me a ball park estimate on value?

T-Mar

Many French manufacturers offered two levels of track models, an economical, club racer model with high tensile tubing and a professional quality model with a CrMo or MnMo butted tubeset. You need to determine which it is. The best indicator is the seat post diameter.

thinktubes 

Spot on. I'm not seeing much here to indicate a higher quality frame. Weighing it might give you an idea of the level of quality.

Poguemahone

Go with the post diameter. Most French manufacturers used the metric 531 tubeset on uppper level bikes. Anything above 26 indicates a better frame.

I hate pricing vintage track framesets. They pretty much always go high, with quality of tubing (and french thread, for that matter) seemingly completely irrelevant.

lostarchitect 

Looks lower quality to me. But still might be a fine riding bike.

Catnap 

Seller says he thinks it's Reynolds 531 but is getting the seatpost diameter for me tonight. the fairly plain-ness of the lugs makes me think it's not a high-end model, but we'll see.

lostarchitect 

I don't see the remnants of a 531 sticker.

Poguemahone

First one to jump ship (bike?) IME... plain lugs don't indicate much to me; their use varied by maker... and I'm not at all familiar with these (Gems) except in passing.

Catnap 

seller wasn't too helpful - he said he couldn't fit a 27mm seatpost in there, but didn't give me the actual sizing.

so what do you guys think it's worth? obviously there's a range of values, but if it's actually 531 then what do you think? and if it's not?

i need to come up with a value because i'm basically naming my price on it. i want to be fair to the seller but not over-value it either.

zukahn1 

Track frames are kinda tough to price since so many ones that are lower end and not even realy track frames have sold for pretty outragouse prices. There seems to be nothing about this frame to indicate varifie that it is high end. Looks a like a cheaper club level or training frame more than likely just a basic frame with track style dropouts. I would probably only pay $150 for it and that seems almost high. I know some will say it is worth a lot more but without being able to verifie what it actually is and the rough looking lug work and so-so paint missing a lot of the original art work decals. There is no way I could see some one paying the kinda of price a nicer vintage competion level track frame often gets which is way high right I have seen just OK ones go for $500-600.

lostarchitect 

I doubt it's 531, but can't say for sure. Track frames are usually expensive, especially in Brooklyn, even if they're lower quality. Personally I think if you spend $100 on this, that would be acceptable but on the high end. I wouldn't pay that much for it myself, but if you really like it I think it would be OK.

However if you're more interested in finding a nice vintage track frame, I would move on.

kroozer 

Last year I was considering buying a Raphael Geminiani road frame of about the same vintage. It was all-531 but I seem to remember it being fairly plain-looking, as this one. So I wouldn't automatically count out chrome-moly. On the othe hand, if you can't confirm, then pay as if it isn't. I suppose one day the fixie fad will end and track frame prices will normalize.

T-Mar

I agree that the frame doesn't show traits of a high end model but this was typical of some French brands. I don't know which way Geminiani leaned during this period, which is why I suggested using the post diameter as the indicator. It would seem that the OP cannot view the frame in person prior to the sale and the seller has limited ability. Consequently, the OP's offer should be consistent with a low end model. If the offer is accepted and, upon receipt it turns out to be a high end model, then the buyer can make additional compensation to the seller.

Catnap 

good advice, all. i was thinking in the $100 - $150 area as well. seller is buying some items from me and wants to include this frame as part of the payment. i'll bring a 26mm post with me and a digital hanging scale to weigh the frame.

anyone know what it should weigh if it's cro-mo / 531 vs. hi-ten steel?

Poguemahone

I could quite easily sell that frame for more than 150$. I'm not sure how much more, but I think at least double. I would look at a hundred dollar offer on an old lugged track frame pretty askance right now... maybe 10-15 years ago. If it is in NYC, I would think no way... The paint is not terrifically beat. Take a set of calipers and measure the seat post opening. I'd snag it at 100$.

Again, they're very hard to price, because they always go high. Lot of demand for them, and very limited numbers made. I own an older track frame, and regularly get unsolicited offers on it. Hipsters were doing something else in the sixties and seventies, like smoking pot and listening to Lonnie Liston Smith lp's...

lostarchitect 

I agree that you probably COULD sell it for more... But wouldn't you feel like you were ripping someone off? I would.

Poguemahone

Not really. My general rule when selling and trading is I want to be able to replace what I sold, with something of like quality. If old low end french trackies are selling for 500 clams, I either want one my size or enough to buy one my size. A track bike is different enough it doesn't fall into the give away category; I've simply given away a few dozen low/mid range frames over the years (ie taken no cash for them). My experience is there is very high demand for these and very low supply.

Granted, this is a bit of a collector's mentality, and when I shuffle off this mortal coil, it is likely my bikes will be sold for pennies on the dollar. However, if I died today, I'm pretty sure the longest line would be for the track frame-- and I have stuff that is actually rare.

thinktubes 

I agree with the $100 to $150 price as being fair if you can't prove that the frame is something special. Not so sure you could get more, outside of selling to an unsuspecting hipster. Once you bump up to $200, you could get a NEW 520 Kilo TT frame from Bike Island.

Catnap 

thanks all, i appreciate the help.