Neto

Hi, Can anyone identify this picture?

some information:
Serial number is 099360320
Wheels 700c
Cromoly
Drop fork is Campagnolo

Tks

unworthy1

BB threading Italian or ISO?
Seat post size is____?

Chombi

I wonder if its one of those late 80's top line model Peugeots, as the lugs and stay ends seem to suggest a French bike....

Neto

The width is 68mm, I think it is ISO.
Seat post 54cm, center to center

Chombi

The significant measurement for the "seatpost" (the component with the saddle rail clamp, not the seat tube on the frame) is its diameter (27.2mm?.....26.4mm??...etc..). I think you are mistakenly measuring the seat tube length....
68mm BB shell width means it's more likely not to be an Italian made frame, as they usually have 70mm width BB shells....

Neto

Sorry,
The diameter is 27,2mm
Some parts are similar to the Bertin.

unworthy1

hmmm...not so sure about it being Peugeot or anything French.
Suppose it's possible if it's a late-enough product but...
Campy fork-ends? I'd say at least the fork might not be FR
Shimano sealed BB unit? They did make them in ISO and Italian, but not FR or Swiss. If this is 68mm shell then I'd vote ISO (or it's something like a VO BB unit).
27.2: that's not metric tubing...probably not JP either
plus the brake bridge looks like a GPM and the vertical dropouts might be either GPM or similar (not Campy, that's certain)
Got me stumped but I'd lean away from FR. Not sure about a late Italian (with ISO BB) or not.
Neto: where are you located and where did the bike come from?

One more question: look up the base of the fork's steerer: any sign of 5 shallow ridges inside?

Chombi

Peugeot had built some high end bikes with other than Simplex fork ends an of course, non-French tubing (Columbus and Reynolds). Especially for models that might have been showcasing Campy components or Pro team replicas, which I think they did make a few of in the late 80's....
I'm not saying this is definitely a Peugeot, but I think the possibility exists from what I see in the pics....

Neto

Hi
Garfo-ends is Campagnolo.
I'm from Brazil and bought here.
sorry, but I did not understand your last question

rando_couche

The one thing that stands out to me is the rear drops: Shimano SF-R semi-verts. I don't think I've ever seen a bike made with them that WASN'T Japanese, and all the other visual cues are consistent with that. So, probably early 80's Japanese.

SP
OC, OR

unworthy1

you're right, they are Shimano DOs, but that doesn't clinch it as being Japanese for me.
I haven't seen many production JP frames with that style internal cable routing (more "Italian" to me, but I'm sure it's not conclusive), or many with Campy fork ends (not unheard-of, but very unusual if the fork is original), or with 27.2 seat posts (again not unheard of but so many JP seattubes take 27.0 or 26.8). The semi-fastback seat cluster with "Dutch" style pinch-bolt are other touches that don't hit me as "Japanese", not sure what to make of the serial number but it doesn't have any alpha characters...
If I was going to guess I'd say it was US-built since it's such a "United Nations" mix...what would be something likely exported to Brazil?

Is there a shot of the bottom of the BB shell that shows the serial number?

I can't explain the question I had about the ridges in the steerer without a picture... John Thompson had a great one to show this, maybe I can dig that up.
Edit: here's a diagram from Tange that shows their steerer which used 6 spiral ridges; Columbus typically had 5 ridges.

Any marks on the outside of the steerer column: Tange, a Columbus dove, numbers, letters?

Neto

this is the serial number, 099360320, only numbers.
There is nothing more marked in frameset.

Humm ok, I understand, I'll look at it when I get home, tks

Neto

I looked, has no spiral ridges inside

Chombi

The "waisted" chainstay bridge is fancier looking than what many makers would have used. It could be one of the keys to identifying the frame....
The black plastic cable guide on the BB looks very much like the "universal" ones sold by Campagnolo......but it could have also replaced an original...
The lugs seem to be Bocamas......do you see any marks on them saying "B.C.M."?? (usually at the bottom of the top head lug)....

unworthy1

unfortunately the "hourglass" shaped stay bridge (what I'd call it) is a standard frame bit: Gipiemme made one, but I bet others did, too.
I'm not familiar with any Japanese bit-makers that copied this, but there could be.
I'm not familiar with a BCM lug that has the un-equal points that these headlugs have: note the lower point is shorter than the upper. The BCM Competition lug, which has a similar cut has even-length points, and those I've seen have a window cut-out, too. The other typical BCM lugs look entirely different. These do look a little like Japanese lugs to me, but it's one of the few thing that does...the BB shell could be another, the "scalloping" on the sockets sort of rings that "Japan" bell.

So, Neto: we can't ID the fork using the steerer's spiral ridges, and if it has no stampings at all then the only clue left are the Campy fork ends and the generic looking blades and crown...not much to go on.

I'd throw this over to T-Mar in hopes that the serial number might be something he can help with...

T-Mar, are you with us?


(GPM catalog page courtesy of VeloBase)

Chombi

The Bocama lugs on my Peugeot PSV have uneven length points with the top points longer thinner/sharper, as would other PSV owners would confirm, I'm sure.... The BB shell on the OP's bike definitely looks very much like the one on my bike too, except mine has pointed lug sockets for the seat and down tubes.......
As for chainstay bridges, many bike companies did not use the cast/waisted bridges and just use a short section of round tubing, specially on their standard model line bikes (non-special edition). I still think a cast/waited bridge is a small extra added touch for most steel bikes....

unworthy1

my point is that the chainstay bridge is a mass-produced bit, so nothing in this case that would provide a clue to the frame brand.
However, from your persistence I had to go to VeloBase and comb through all the late '80s early '90s Peugeot catalogs ...you are right: there ARE some similarities to the top-of-line models, but I don't see one (yet) that has all the features of Neto's in one example.
Still I have to eat a little crow and give props to Chombi, here I thought you were just being a rabid Francophile, again.
The one detail I don't see in any of the "good" Pugs from this era is one that would have 27.2 seat post (531 or Columbus steel) and with the internal TT cable routing, all I see have external brake cable running under or on top of the TT.

What about the serial number: any correlation to Peugeots (location on BB and system) in this 80s/90s timeframe?

Neto

Actually, it is very similar to the Peugeot 80s, 90s.

unworthy1

^probably the best working theory to use at this time. Maybe you can ask miamijim to take a look re: the serial number...he's the other Peugeot expert around here.
The fact that the steerer is smooth inside tells me it might be made with Reynolds (rather than Columbus) tubing.

miamijim

I have reservations about it being a Peugeot. I'd like to see some type of engraving on the fork and the serial number format is off, granted, by the early 90's when Cycleurope took over the format change,d but it just doesn't seem right to me.

Everyone was using Shimano dropouts in the late 80's and early 90's so that's of no concern.

unworthy1

^the waters get murky again, guess we still have a bit of a mystery, here...
thanks for chiming in, Jim!

miamijim

Another aspect is the chainstay bridge, Peugeot didn't use that style and the one in question here is kind of goof amateurist being jammed right against the BB shell like that. Peugeot didn't have the highest quality craftsmanship and features varied a lot but that bridge, to me anyways, seems too quirky.

miamijim

These pics will give you an idea of what Peugeot was doing in the late 80's early 90's. This particular frame is a Cycleurope product so '92 at the earliest. Late 80's frames shared very similar design characteristics...no chainstay bridge, non-adjustable no name vertical drop outs, short BB/chainstay lug joints with small cut outs, fast back seat satys. Of note on this frame are the lug windows and lack of fork crown pantographing.

JohnDThompson 

We used them at Trek in the early 80s, but that doesn't look like a Trek frame. And Gipiemme made a very similar looking dropout:



Are the OP's dropouts stamped "Shimano UF?"

Neto

I found that the frame is 27mm seatpost and not 27.2. This helps in something?