ppg677

Any concerns with a 215lb rider on lightweight Fiamme Hard Silver (36h) rims?

My winter project came with these, but given the rear has a couple flat parts, I may spend the money on an NOS replacement for the rear. Or I can replace both with something heavier duty if these aren't appropriate for my weight.

noglider 

They'll work ... until they don't. No one can really say how long they'll last. Fiamme rims weren't great, ever. You could hardly do worse, so yeah, think of some other rim if you want them to be reliable and durable.

ppg677

Thanks. I'll inspect frequently! Looks like there isn't much being made for new alloy tubular rims. (tubular tires already ordered!)

Six jours

I'm not a fan of Fiamme rims either. But a good builder and a high spoke count can cover a multitude of sins.

Having said that, I would never buy an NOS Fiamme rim when there are so many good and reasonably affordable rims from folks like Mavic available on Ebay.

79pmooney

35 years ago when everyone rode tubulars, the silver Fiammes were medium weight not very strong rims. In other words, OK if you had a cheap source and you were light. At your weight, not a good rim.

I loved the Fiamme Ergal rims, but those were of high strength for the day aluminum (Ergal) and a true racing rim. Since I weighed 145 pounds, it was a match made in heaven. I flat-spotted one rim once going over poor New England railroad tracks going full tilt in the last mile of a very fast race with under inflated silk tires.

Ben

SoreFeet

If you need to replace them with sew ups look at the older Mavic GP4 laced to specialized hubs...great combo and quite reliable.

Chombi

Rims like the Fiamme Ergals were state of the art back in the 70's but compared to what came out a decade later, they were pathetically soft as the technology/metallurgy had moved on with so much better/stronger rims like the similarly light Mavic GL330's and even the weenie GEL280's.....
I would not consider rims like the Ergals as "daily riders" as flat spotting, and constant need for re-truing are almost a normal course of events when you ride them for any significant number of miles on regular roads.....

kunsunoke 

If you're worried about durability, then swap the Fiamme on the rear wheel out for Velocity, preferably a Major Tom. Velocity rims tension nicely during the build process, without flat-spotting. In this regard they are much better than Fiamme, Mavic, Campagnolo or any other rim manufacturer that makes tubulars.

Another option - bagging the Performance MT21 rims that Ben's Cycle has going on eBay. $25 USD (free shipping) buys two 36h tubulars that can take a pounding if built properly. And those particular rims are Made in Italy, if that's important to you at all.

Amazing how nobody ever pays attention to the spokes, which are the most important part of any wheel build.

I'm at around 200lbs myself. With the exception of the '84 LeTour fixed gear, all my bikes are over-built on the drive side to compensate for dish. Tension variances that come about as a result of dish are in many cases responsible for back wheels coming out of true more often than front wheels.

The technique that works for me is using DT Alpine III spokes (which are 2.34mm at the head), in three-cross pattern.

ppg677

Turns out my rear Fiamme Hard Silver is a goner anyways. On closer inspection there are cracks forming around one spoke hole. Perhaps I did it by trying to bring up tension from a pathetic ~50 Kgf to ~110 Kgf. I read somewhere that vintage tubular rims don't call for as high as tension on the DS of a modern build.

I bagged those Performance MT21s. Saw them too! With a 613 ERD, I might even try to re-use the spokes which have no rust on them (spoke calculator indicates a 1mm difference compared to the 615 ERD of the Fiamme's).

jyl

Don't feel bad, i pulled a eyelet through a Fiamme Ergal, then I learned that max tension on those old, soft rims is much lower than typical for modern rims.

fietsbob

Yea the ergal is a stronger alloy but they used the stronger aluminum to use less of it,


Cycling News was surprised when they saw a set of Ambrosio hard anodized Rims on the bikes at the start of the Paris-Roubaix race..

looked like they broke them out again after completing the race Before , solid Conservative 32 hole 3 cross.

guess the sponsorship money for something to prove for marketing, was not there, so the Mechanics went with what Worked.

ppg677

I have no idea what to expect out of these $25 Italian made "Performance MT-21" rims coming my way, but I assume I should go with a max tension of around 85 Kgf ??

jyl

I dunno. 435 grams, pretty hefty rims, so maybe not as delicate as the Fiammes mentioned above, which are about 330 gram rims, very light.

ppg677

I've switched to Mavic GP4.

RobbieTunes

I didn't touch this thread for fear of being a naysayer, but when my cycling friends had those, they rode 1-2 crits on them and threw them away, or one good road race. They were impossible to get back round. They used to say the only thing that held them round was a good tire.

When Centurion offered the Cinelli Equipe Centurion, they wanted to use Italian, but non-Campy components where possible, and laced the Fiamme Hard Silvers to Miche hubs. Not for non-skinny riders.

The only person I know who's ridden them without qualm or issue, is A.Winthrop. He's a skinny lad.

I can't imagine what someone like Cavendish Sagen would do to a set of Hard Silvers in a sprint. Probably the first BioPace rim.

look171

Someone gave me a Fiamme Hard Silver so I built it up and rode it for a 3 weeks or maybe a month? I was 140 lbs and rough on equip. The damn thing was constantly on my truing stand. I gone back to riding my 36 spoke GP4s for training. Unless you like the art of truing wheels, it gets old quick. The more you turn those nipples, the faster they pull out.

randyjawa 

Should I be concerned about these rims, recently installed on my 1969 Atala..?

OldsCOOL

Quite the opposite to what is said here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-any-good.html

noglider 

Wow, those reports show that these rims are pretty craptacular. I had no idea.

The industry has come a long way.

gaucho777 

In my experience, Fiamme Red Label rims don't always need constant attention. I have a pair of 36h, 3-cross wheels with Fiamme Red rims, Campagnolo Record HF hubs and thin-gauge Robergel Trois Etoiles spokes, which have served me and my ~195 pounds quite well. Here they are mounted to my Cilo at the top of Kiler Canyon on the Eroica CA medium route (I rode the route but not on event day). Finished the ride a true as when I started.

OldsCOOL

According to today's standards but they are still quite useable. That was the point I was making.

noglider 

Am I correct in remembering they came out around 1982? If they are as hard to keep true as the reports here say, they were craptacular by 1982 standards. I didn't true my wheels that often.

Chombi

ithought the Fiamme Red labels (Ergals) were from the mid 70's.....
Anyway, my experience with them had been that they are quite craptacular......at least compared to most 80's rims.....
Can't ride my 72 bike right now because the Red labeled Ergals on it are rubbing on the bake pads again after just a few miles after I re-trued them, This will be the second time i will have to re-true them after I built them..... and I''m only around 170 pounds max.... I think the aluminum alloy(?) they used on them isn't too different from the one used on those foldable pool furniture chaise lounges you can still buy at K-Mart and some gas stations..... As the Brits might say, they are made from "chocolate"!
Anyone know of what better tubular rims from the same era (70's) I might replace them with?? Are Super Champion "Arc En Ciels" a much better choice??

noglider 

@Chombi, I was referring to the Hard Silver model, the subject of this thread. Red labels from the mid 70's, probably. Hard silvers, 1982, from what I remember.

I rode Arc En Ciels, and yes, they were very good. My impression of rims of that era was:

Mavic - best
Super Champion - almost as good as Mavic
Rigida - almost as good as Super Champion
Italian rims - not so great

I don't know much about materials or manufacturing, but it appears that making good rims is hard. Now, 30-odd years later, Mavic appears to remain on top. I had a pair of Ksyrium wheels a couple of years ago and sold them because I needed cash. That was dumb.

gaucho777 

Chombi, I think you may be confusing Fiamme Red with Ergals. Note the velobase link below. You will see there is an Ergal model with a gold label clearly labeled "Ergal." (I have no experience with these rims.) Then there are several difference versions of the Fiamme Red Label rims.

Fiamme Ergal: VeloBase.com - Component: Fiamme Ergal

Fiamme Strada (Red Label): VeloBase.com - Component: Fiamme Strada (red label)