Originally Posted by cyccommute

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Originally Posted by bigfred

On the subject of spoke diameters and specifically 13ga/2.3mm elbows:

Cyccommute and I have a history of having debated this subject before. I don't intend to go down that path once again. I feel the only logical position for he and I to take is one of us agreeing that we do not agree on this subject. ...

Originally Posted by bigfred

Your reading comprehension seems to leave a lot to be desired. In case you missed this the first time.

Originally Posted by bigfred

Your reading comprehension seems to leave a lot to be desired. In case you missed this the first time.

Originally Posted by chriskmurray

Theoretical arguments aside, real world experience shows even straight gauge spokes when properly built can last for tens of thousands of miles under heavy use. The thicker elbow is nice for a little extra security but in the real world, if a wheel is built well it will last for many many thousands of miles. Cyccommute makes it sound like people are constantly breaking spokes and that may be a common problem at his coop but people with well built wheels rarely break spokes, even if they are "just" using quality straight gauge spokes.

Originally Posted by cyccommute

Real world experience also show that many people have spoke breakage problems. The "well built" part is the issue. There are lots and lots and lots of poorly built wheels around. Let's not lose sight of what Need4Speed is trying to do. He wants to build his own wheel and has no experience with wheel building at all. How likely is that he will get a "well built" wheel first time out of the gate? He will make mistakes. Going with spokes that require years of experience to get a "well bullt" wheel out of sets him up for possible failure. Using a 2.3mm headed spoke gives him more wiggle room and is more forgiving when...not if...he makes mistakes on his first wheelset.

Even when "well built" using a thicker spoke makes for a better build in the hands of an experienced builder. It solves a problem that really is there. I've had wheels...machine built...that had a spoke loosen. If you don't think that the spokes move in the hub, you would be wrong. I could hear the spoke "tink" each time that spoke hit the bottom of the wheel. It took a while to find the sound but as soon as I noticed the very loose spoke and tightened it, the "tink" sound was gone. Perhaps it was something else that made the "tink" sound that magically fixed itself when I tightened the spoke but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by chriskmurray

Despite what many wheelbuilders want you to think, building a good wheel is not rocket surgery. Some people build great wheels from their very first set, others still can not build a good wheel after building thousands so experience is not as important as patience and your willingness to do research. The key is simply doing your homework on how to do it right and then have an experienced builder double check his work. Especially if he buys the parts from his local shop or is simply a good customer there chances are they would not charge simply to check his work, I know I never charged to simply look over a wheel a regular built themselves when I worked in a shop.

To me thicker gauge spokes are a want vs need thing, if you want them that is fine and they will not do any harm but you certainly do not NEED them to have a durable wheel like you suggest.

Originally Posted by bigfred

On the subject of spoke diameters and specifically 13ga/2.3mm elbows:

Cyccommute and I have a history of having debated this subject before. I don't intend to go down that path once again. I feel the only logical position for he and I to take is one of us agreeing that we do not agree on this subject. However, I feel it's important to present the other side of the considerations for those who are attempting to select their own components.

As pointed out by chriskmurray, there are many heavy cyclists, tourists and tandem teams who utilize standard dimension spokes without failures.

I agree that one of the most common failure modes amongst factory built clyde wheels is spoke breakage of the non-drive side elbow.

However, we must ask ourselves "why" these failures occur and investigate the root cause of that.

It is accepted that these breakages are generally the result of cracks formed through work hardening and fatigue from millions of cycles of loading and unloading that an Under Tensioned spoke is subject to.

An undertensioned wheel allows these spokes to be subjected to this cycle. If a wheel is tensioned appropriately for it's intended use, the spokes never become fully unloaded and any variations in tension are within the elastic limits of that spoke. Subsequently, we can see the elimination of fatigue related elbow or head breakages.

To me, the notion of using larger diameter elbows to counter act this situation is akin to adding suspenders to your trousers that already have a belt installed, but, which simply is drawn up snug. Tighten your belt, and the suspenders are neccessary.

Use 13ga/2.3mm diameter spokes in an undertensioned wheel and while you might extend the period before you start to experience fatigue related issues, but, you won't eliminate the issue.

Properly tension that same wheel, so that you don't experience fatigure related failures and you could have achieved the same result through the use of standard straight gauge or double butted spokes.

I seriously considered using 13ga/2.3mm elbowed spokes on the my last build for myself (the set of DT585s that are my current training wheels). But, the headaches of sourcing very uncommon spokes that are only available in limited sizes and colors, from very few retailers, at considerable expense compared to double butted spokes and the logic above convinced me to stay with standard 14/15ga 2.0/1.8/2.0mm double butted spokes.

Some of the arguements for heavier gauged spokes are simply red hearings. Such as the notion of "better filling the spoke hole" on the hub and eliminating movement at that juncture. In a properly tensioned wheel that increased or decreased clearance is simply moot. The constantly tensioned spoke will be held hard against the nearest edge. A U shaped channel or key hole slot function just as well.

A wheel is ultimately a "composite" structure. It is only as strong as it's weakest link. And to realize the ultimate potential of any wheel the components need to be selected in such a way that they compliment each other.

Spokes deserve appropriate consideration in that selection process. However, they are only part of the equation and in the vast majority of cases there are other spoke options that are just as capable of meeting the design requirements.

If you want to add some suspenders to your trousers, in addition to the belt (tension) that you already have to consider, by all means go for it. Wheel Fanatyk stocks uncut 13ga. that he'll custom cut to length and thread for you, at a cost. St John Street Cycles in the UK has also stocked a reasonable selection in the past but I don't know if they still do.

It still comes down to tension. And for a heavy rider to not have spokes going slack on the non-drive side, reasonably high tension is required. Many light, low profile or box section rims simply can't hold the neccessary tension without starting to collapse or turn into the shape of a potato chip or taco. A rims rigidity and ability to resist the tension that cyldes require is largely determined by the amount of material (weight) and shape (depth of V cross section) of a rim.

When selecting your own wheel components, think about your use for the wheel honestly, write down your priorities of weight, durability, cost, etc. on paper. Use those to consider what components may be most appropriate. If building your own for the first time, seriously consider your level of experience and that what you really need is an opportunity to build a successful wheel. Those requirements may out weigh your desire to construct some sort of "dream" or "bling" wheel.

The clyde standard is a 30mm V shaped rim of at least 500 grams, laced 3 cross with either straight or double butted spokes and brass nipples to a hub with a steel freebody for a reason.

Originally Posted by contango

Check the weight rating for the tyres - I went through a rear Schwalbe Durano Plus in under 2000 miles and it turned out I was overloading it. I weigh about 240 but the tyre is rated for 75kg (about 165lb) so if you take a 66-33 weight distribution then my 240lb would be split 160-80 before you consider the weight of the bike.

I approached building my first wheel with some concern but my LBS had lent me a couple of wheels with trashed rims to practise on so when I started to lace my first live wheel my main concern was the chance of wrecking parts that had cost me actual money. If you take your time and approach it methodically it's not particularly difficult.

At your weight go for a good spoke count and choose decent quality components. At my weight (about 240 as I mentioned) I built a 32-spoke rear wheel and it's held up fine over probably 2000 miles or so thus far. Since you're heavier you might want to consider going for 36 spokes. I also wouldn't cheap out on components, we heavy riders put more strain on our gear so get stuff that will last. I figure if I cheap out and build a cheap wheel I might save some money now but if it breaks and I have to take a train home then I just lost my savings, and still have to build a decent wheel.

Originally Posted by cyccommute

While there are some people out there who have never experienced a spoke failure, there are many times that number who have. Spoke failure is the number 1 wheel problem. Rim failure and hub failure are a very distant second and third. If a wheel is going to fail, it is going to fail at the spokes.

In my experience, you are completely incorrect is assuming the most common failure mode of any wheel is spoke breakage on the non-drive side. I see failed drive side spokes all the time as a mechanic at my local co-op but seldom see a non-drive side spoke failure. They just don't happen even on the most poorly tensioned of wheels.




Yes, we must certainly ask "why" but first we have to ask it about the proper problem. The drive side spokes are under higher tension than the nondrive side. No matter how high you get the tension on a wheel, the very nature of the floating rim on the spoke nipples will result in a spoke undergoing some unloading and reloading on each cycle. You can not avoid it with the way that bicycle wheels are made. At the bottom of rotation, the rim is being squashed and is releasing just a little bit of tension on the spokes while that tension is being taken up at the top of the wheel. The spokes at the bottom aren't "fully unloaded" but they do go through an unloading cycle. Essentially, the rim (under load) will never be round.

This constant loading and unloading of even the best tensioned spoke will eventually lead to spoke failure...even of the most properly tensioned spoke. It may take more time but it will happen. And the greater the load that the wheel has to bear, the sooner the spoke will fatigue.



Your analogy is all wrong. The larger diameter elbows aren't used to counteract low tension but to counteract how the wheel has to be built. Every 2.0mm spoke has a threaded end that is 2.3mm in diameter. The hole at the hub has to be 2.3mm for the treads to pass through the hub. Every single hole in the hub has a built in 0.3mm gap. The fact that we can build pretty good wheels with 2.0mm spokes speaks well to the strength of those spokes but spoke breakage is a fact of life. It happens all the time due to fatigue of the head from constant loading and unloading.

A more proper pants analogy would be that you don't have a belt or suspenders. Each loading and unloading cycle is your pants falling down and having to be hitch up again. Going to a spoke that actually fits the spoke hole tighter is like putting on a belt or (not "and" but "or") suspenders to hold up the pants.




First if you were to use a 2.3mm spoke on an undertensioned wheel it would extend the period before you start to experience fatigue. The problem is that you are assuming that the wheel is undertensioned. Carry your thought just a little further to a properly tensioned wheel with 2.3mm spokes and what happens? You've achieved a much stronger wheel over all.




So you haven't really tried them? So what experience do you have with them to say that they are worse...which is what you have been implying all along? I don't find them any more difficult to source than other quality spokes. I gave 4 different manufacturers for this kind of spoke. I can get individual DT Alpine III in just about any length I want from Universal Cycles in black. If I want silver I can go to SJS. Or I can get Pillars from BDop Cycles for $7 per 8 pack. Wheelsmith and Sapim are available from a variety of sources.



The problem is that you are misunderstanding the wheel dynamics. The spoke isn't constantly tensioned, no matter how high you get the tension. The spoke nipple isn't a "nut". There is nothing to keep the rim from moving upward as the rim hits dead bottom of the wheel. The upper spokes will pull upwards as the rim deforms but that still means that the bottom spokes will be pulled upwards. Each spoke sees a detensioning and retensioning on each cycle around the wheel.



I agree absolutely. I just disagree on what is the weakest link. The rim and hub aren't the weakest link. The spoke is. If you want the wheel to be as strong as it's weakest link, start with the weak point...the spokes.



Yes, it comes down to tension. But the tension is set by the spoke.



Where have I said anything about "bling" or "dream" wheels? I'm talking about everyday, ride 'em hard, pound them to death wheels.

I do agree that wheel building should be about honestly assessing the use of the wheel, the weight, the durability and the cost. I also think you should consider value. A spoke with a 2.3mm head doesn't add much to the cost nor the weight. But it does add significantly to the strength. And, considering that Need4Speed is new to wheel building, do you really think he'll get his tensions right the first time? If his wheel isn't tensioned properly, the thicker head is more forgiving.

Let's do a couple of thought experiments, shall we? Let's start with a rim. Let's make a wheel around a 30mm wide rim that is steel. It weighs much more than the 500 g you say are "needed" by clydes. It's stronger than any aluminum rim you could possibly construct. You can put enough tension on the spokes to actually break the spoke by pulling on it hard enough. You might have to use a steel nipple to actually break the spoke but that's not something we need to worry about. Let's also not worry about the braking issues with steel wheels...we can solve that problem. Let's just concentrate on the wheel strength.

Now, since the rim is so strong, we can use a very thin cross section spoke. Let's use a 1.8mm spoke. We have a strong rim, so the tension should be a problem on that thin of spoke. Would the wheel be strong enough? I'd suspect that the rim would pop spokes with frightening regularity even if you took the tension up the the breaking point of the spoke.

Let's also consider the current wheels that Need4Speed is using. If he could find a 30mm V-shaped rim that weighs in a 500g in the same drilling why not just replace the rim? He should be able to develop enough tension with the spokes he has to make a strong wheel. After all, all he needs is the proper tension...according to your way of thinking.

Originally Posted by TheNeed4Speed

Well, guess what...took it out for a ride today after putting about 100 miles on it since I bought it and noticed a little ticking sound in the back wheel. Stopped, felt around on the back spokes, sure enough there were a few that were loose as hell. Proceeded with the ride and about 10 miles in noticed a new reverbration- imbalance if you wheel in the back tire. Stopped, spun the back wheel and the fahking thing makes about 2 spins and catches on the brakes. Maybe I should take the back wheel to the LBS and see if they can re-tension it for me so that I can buy a little time to get a real back wheel. Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by TheNeed4Speed

Hey cyc:

On Amazon I'm seeing 2 types of the Alpine III spoke:
DT Alpine III Black 293m m 2.34/1.8/2.0

and
DT Swiss - Alpine III 278mm Black

which ones do you recommend?

Originally Posted by chriskmurray

Despite what many wheelbuilders want you to think, building a good wheel is not rocket surgery. Some people build great wheels from their very first set, others still can not build a good wheel after building thousands so experience is not as important as patience and your willingness to do research. The key is simply doing your homework on how to do it right and then have an experienced builder double check his work. Especially if he buys the parts from his local shop or is simply a good customer there chances are they would not charge simply to check his work, I know I never charged to simply look over a wheel a regular built themselves when I worked in a shop.

To me thicker gauge spokes are a want vs need thing, if you want them that is fine and they will not do any harm but you certainly do not NEED them to have a durable wheel like you suggest.

Originally Posted by chriskmurray

While those are nice super tough spokes. Saying someone NEEDS a spoke with a 2.3mm head to have a durable wheel is simply not true. Plenty of tandem teams are running standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes with tens of thousands of miles. I have build wheels for touring cyclists that rider+gear was a similar weight with standard DB spokes and they were good until the rims wore out from brake track wear.

Originally Posted by TheNeed4Speed

Hey cyc:

On Amazon I'm seeing 2 types of the Alpine III spoke:
[h=3]DT Alpine III Black 293m m 2.34/1.8/2.0[/h]and
[h=3]DT Swiss - Alpine III 278mm Black [/h]which ones do you recommend?

Originally Posted by chriskmurray

I just feel they really only need to be used in very harsh conditions, this is not one of them. Lots of heavier riders feel their weight will ensure every wheel will crumble under them if not grosly overbuild which is simply not true.

Originally Posted by TheNeed4Speed

The only other thing I've been noticing is a creaking sound on both sides of the crank, kind of feels like it's coming from the pedals. I have cheap plastic pedals on it right now. Does anybody know what that sound might be? The crank bearings aren't starting to get fahked already are they?