kickstart

Agreed, it's just more obvious, and less likely to be misinterpreted.

Of course some can still willfully misinterpret it, or anything else if it suits them.

jfowler85

Lots of assumptions here - out of all of my commuting throughout the US - mostly west of the Mississippi, I have not found any of these adages to be true except in one single case. Perhaps your roads/drivers are different (having cycled around Denver many times I find that not to be the case but I would give you the benefit of that doubt nonetheless) then what I have experienced, but mostly I find that cars will simply drive around you. In the case that the cyclist squeezes himself between free flowing traffic and a stopped turning lane, that can be potentially dangerous but I've done it countless times and others have to, with no issues (the key therein is to filter up to the corner of the first car instead of waiting beside it...does anyone even really do that?).

Getting right-hooked is always a possibility when either you are riding in the driver's blind spot or the driver is oblivious. This is obvious and incorporating a left turn into the scenario doesn't make it any worse.

As far as your latter statement, that is absolutely false. You have no control over the cars behind you. If you are going too slow and an opening presents itself to an inclined driver, he/she will pass you. No cyclist has any control over any vehicle on the road, that's just silly to assume you would, and is a great way to get yourself hurt. Waiting in a line of moving traffic is a great way to get rear-ended, if anything.

cyccommute 

Perhaps you should check the accident statistics. Getting rear ended is the least common mode of accident between a car and a bicycle. People don't just run over cyclists that are in front of them. I've never had someone try to pass me during a left turn when I'm in the middle of the left turn lane. There isn't enough room for them to pass me and, again, motorist don't run over cyclists for no reason.

I'm also not "waiting in a line of moving traffic". The line of traffic either isn't moving...i.e. it's waiting for the light...or it is moving at the same speed as I am after the light turns green.

PatrickGSR94

"Control" may not be the best term, but "influence" certainly works. You ABSOLUTELY influence traffic behind you based on your riding behavior, lane position, hand signals, and probably other factors. There was a study conducted recently of how lane position affects motorist passing distance. The farther left the cyclist gets (farther from the edge), the more likely the motorist is to change lanes to pass. Interestingly, starting from the curb or edge, if one moves just a few feet left (right tire track), passing distances actually get CLOSER. But then as the cyclist moves farther left still towards the left tire track, nearly 100% of motorists change lanes to pass. This directly reflects my experiences in the past 3 years of riding and commuting by bike.

So yes, you definitely can influence motorists behind you. To think you cannot influence others is just silly. The very act of being there influences others. Pretending that other people can't see you is actually a great way to get hurt. The best way to stay safe is to do everything in your power to MAKE SURE other people can SEE you.

RubeRad

Statistically speaking, I think that is better explained by the VERY small number of cyclists that take the lane.

cyccommute 

Just a minor quibble: "Control" is exactly the term to use. People can try to sneak around me on a left turn or even when going straight but if I'm positioned in the middle of the lane, they can only "try".

Exactly. The problem here is one of perception (with a modicum of fear). Motorists aren't out there to just run down cyclists willy nilly. You've only been commuting for 3 years, I've been commuting for 10 times that. I've had lots of time to observe how motorists act and while we bicyclists may anger some drivers from time to time, seldom do we anger them to the point of murderous intent. I've never had someone in a car try to actively run me over while making a left turn and I make thousands of them per year. Even on multi-lane left turns to multi-lane roadways, people don't actively try to run me over.

PatrickGSR94

I say influence because I sometimes have people ignore my signals to hang back because a car is coming the other way or that I'm about to make a left turn. This always happens on 2-lane roads. I'm far left in the lane, looking back, sticking my left arm out, but they pass anyway like impatient a-holes. But that's pretty rare compared to how most people behave.

cyccommute 

That makes no sense at all. You don't have to take the lane to be hit from behind. If anything, not taking the lane results in more people trying to pass you with less room and a higher chance of being hit from behind. Try riding up against the curb vs a bit further out in the lane sometime and see how often cars will try to squeeze past you when they can't.

The most common car/bicycle accident mode, by the way, is a car turning left turning across a bicyclist's path.

ajmstilt

Where I commute all intersections are sensor controlled. The Left turn sensors never detects my bicycle when I'm moving.

What this means if if I stop at the end behind more than about 5 cars the gap between me and the car in front is too big and the left turn light changes before I can enter the intersection. (For most of my lefts, the signal is very very unforgiving and short.) So I filter to the front if more than 4 or 5 cars are present, if fewer I'll wait in line.

Leisesturm

I wondered if you would ever admit, in print, that drivers don't always "listen" and respect your right of way. Now compound that. Add in something like race to the mix. Now you may understand why racial minorities and/or women might choose less confrontational styles of riding than pure VC.

Leisesturm

Tandems, women, older riders... when the light (arrow) turns green, the car ahead is going to pull away like the cyclists are standing still. The light (arrow) will time out long before the bike gets to the intersection if more than 3 or more cars back. Cars behind will be livid. Again as I said to Patrick... throw gender, race or age into that charged dynamic of impatient cager who missed the turn because they were too decent to just run you over. You have to sit through the complete light cycle with their horn blowing or their yelling out their window that you should be on the sidewalk or whatever gets in their head to say to you that is against TOS for me to repeat here. YMMV, but I pick my battles. I filter as close to the light as possible to maximize the chance that I will get through the arrow on the first cycle, and I take a line through the turn that allows cars to pass if they need to. If they don't, great, but they can't say I didn't give them the option.

PatrickGSR94

No one is being confrontational. I just posted a video over the weekend of 5 cases of people doing stupid things (4 of those being stupid passing) over the past couple of weeks. NOT ONE ever honked, yelled, or came close to me in any way, shape or form. They put themselves and other motorists in danger, while ignoring me trying to help keep them safe. Find it in the "what does your commute look like" thread.

Apparently you don't understand traffic dynamics. Unless the intersection is very large and spread out, people aren't going fast through a left turn when there's other traffic in front of them. Most people take it fairly slow (unless they're trying to make a stale green arrow with no one in front of them). When a line of traffic starts moving, there is delay farther back in line because people always allow a gap to open up in front of them before they start moving. What you say COULD happen, depending on how far back in line you are, and how short the arrow is. Most turn arrows last longer than 3 cars, except that one by my office that lasts EXACTLY 3 cars long. Some arrows last 10 or even 20 cars. It all depends on how the signal is timed and adjusted, which SHOULD be done based on traffic volumes along with sensor inputs.

As I've mentioned before, I took to the sidewalk once in Florida because of past experiences with an extremely long left turn queue, for exactly the reason you stated. But then in other places I've been 5-6 cars back with a trailer full of groceries attached, and I still made it through the left turn fine, as did traffic behind me. A little more of a gap opened up between me and the car in front, but no one was "livid" as you said. No one honked or revved or did any of those things.

I think much of the animosity you feel like exists from motorists towards cyclists, just simply isn't real.

cyccommute 

Light detection systems are a different matter. Although I do have problems with a few that won't detect me, it is a rare event that I can't trip a light. It's all about position and locating the best place to be detected. Here's good primer on how to get systems to detect you. I use these techniques all the time and I've used them all over the US with good effect.

Where to start? First off, let's address the "women, older riders, minorities" statement. How condescending can you be? I know plenty women and older riders (I could easily be classified in that category) and minorities who are fully capable of accelerating from a dead stop to the speed of the cars moving in a left hand turn from 3, 4 or even 5 carlengths back from the light. I often find myself having to brake for the cars making a left turn as they are slowly proceeding through the turn. People don't drag race off the line on left turns.

Additionally, I've made literally thousands of left turns from the left lane while positioned behind the last car in the line when I arrived over 35+ years of commuting and I've never had anyone who sat with "their horn blowing or their yelling out their window that you should be on the sidewalk". I've ridden in 47 of the 50 states. I made left turns from the left lane while queued up behind cars even in large cities...Denver, Washington DC, Seattle, LA area, Nashville, Louisville, Cincinnati, Detroit, etc...and never had a problem. Most of my visits to those cities and states have involved riding a bike with up to 50 lbs of touring gear as well. Still never had a problem.

Exactly my experience. I've never had anyone honk at me or even be upset about me being in front of them on a left turn. I get plenty of honks and shouts in other situations but my capacity to ignore them is quite high.

alan s 

I've never been hit, therefore I must be doing everything right.

PatrickGSR94

There is one light on my commute that often has little traffic going my way (straight) in both morning and evenings. I can tell you for sure that the light WILL NOT give me a green unless a car comes along in my lane. I waited through 3 cycles once. So because of that I often have to hoof it across when the left turn arrow comes on, before the oncoming left turning traffic makes it across my path.

Same here. I've had 3 close calls in 3 years, and only one of those was REALLY close. The other two weren't that big of a deal. Never been hit. Fell down from being clipped in a few times but that's about it.

kickstart

Same here, haven't been hit while riding a bicycle in over 40 years.

One doesn't need to be a Richard to be safe.

rmfnla

bfuser284953024

Huh, I guess I've never thought too hard about this.

In the morning, the only left turn I make is onto a side street up to the office. So I usually take the entire turn lane for myself. The lane has always been empty, so I signal and make it clear where I'm headed. My left turn home is on a busy street onto a busy street that leads to a pretty congested bridge. Usually, I just go to the front of the row. I signal, and try to make it clear where I'm headed, regardless of if people are looking at me or not. Though the past few days, I've hit the light just as its turned green, so I've been able to slide on through and not worry about the oncoming traffic too much.

Edit: I feel like I have a bad track record! I've been biking "seriously" for about 2 years, and have been in 1 accident. It was ruled that the driver was to fault. Its really impressive to hear about cyclists who been at it for decades and never been in an accident!

jfowler85

I didn't mention anything about the statistically highest chance of being injured as a cyclist in traffic, not sure where you're getting that from. You are more than welcome to pull some stats for me if you want, but that's your burden not mine. I also never said that motorists run over cyclists for no reason...not clear where that is headed either.

A car most certainly would have room to pass you during a left turn if the oncoming lane is clear and no median separates the two. This is apparently not the case for any of the roads you cycle on, which is unusual but possible I suppose.

Surely you understand the nature of stop light traffic; ie it's like a reverse slinky insofar as a vehicle will not begin moving forward (creeping doesn't count) until the vehicle in front of it moves forward, the lead vehicle notwithstanding of course. Therefore, when waiting in a line of traffic, upon the green (the context here is a light, not a sign) there exists a moment where you are waiting in a line that is moving. Unless you just happen to always cycle amongst friendly, unhurried drivers (not the case in Denver, as anyone in Laramie or Cheyenne will tell you) then you end up holding up the line when the wave gets to you...especially once the turn starts to straighten out and vehicles begin more rapid acceleration.

I am willing to give a qualifier here: if you are only 2 or 3 cars back, it doesn't matter, at least in my experience. In busy traffic, high congestion, rush hour, near the local college, etc, I find it better to filter up to the front and get out of the intersection and out of the way quickly. Makes everyone more agreeable, and bonus - you don't have to wait as long either or get stuck because of a wonky 5 second green light.

jfowler85

Influence and control are, as you have observed, not the same. Not mutually exclusive, but not the same.

MereMortal

I think there are two left turns on my daily commute.

I am slow. I ride a slow, crappy, heavy bike-usually strapped down with various things like work clothes, makeup bag, and groceries. I feel almost rude sometimes on a road with no bike lanes.

I'm also in OC, where nobody has patience for anything and most people will gladly run you over just because it's Tuesday.

If I know it's a short light, I'll try to get to the front of the line, on the right of the car. That way, I lessen the chance of still being in the intersection when the light goes red.

If it's a long light, I'll wait my turn behind a car, because I know I'll have time to safely cross the intersection. Positioning is really a matter of not being in a blind spot/watching out for people who can't drive and make unnecessarily wide turns.

cyccommute 

Yours is a logic that I just don't get when it comes to filtering either on the right or, since it appears to be a thing now, on left turns. If, as you say, "people will gladly run you over just because it's Tuesday" what do you accomplish by filtering to the front of the line? Do you want to give them another shot at running you over?

In most of my commuting, I'm being passed by cars all the time. Often I will catch them at a stoplight. If I filter to the front, they just have to pass me all over again. If the motorists in your area drive with such murderous intent, why give them a second bite at the apple? Additionally, I would think that someone shoving their way to the head of the line would be more likely to set off their murderous tendencies.

Think of it this way, if you were in a car at a left turn and someone in another car came along side of you, pulled in front of you and tried to get around the corner before you did, how would you feel towards the other driver? I couldn't think of anything that would more instantaneously set off road rage than that kind of boneheaded maneuver.

ItsJustMe

Same thing I do if I'm in a car. Get in line, though in the left tire track. If everyone else in line in front of me is going straight and the way is clear, I'll move up on the left side of all the cars and take my place behind any left turning cars.

PatrickGSR94

Just this past Saturday I was making a left turn onto a major road, before making an immediate right into a parking lot by the LBS. I contemplated filtering to the right of the cars in the left lane. But then I came to my senses and waited my turn in line. This is a large intersection with those diagonal yield/merge lanes for right-turning traffic. The arrow is relatively short there, but there were only a few cars in front of me. Not much of a gap had opened up by the time I got through the intersection, not much more than if I had been in my car, really. I had no problems. As I turned right into the right lane, I immediately stuck my right hand out to signal to the motorists waiting at the right turn yield/merge lane to wait until after I passed before starting to merge into the through lane.

Korina

@cyccommute, thanks for the link; I have one left turn signal on my ride to work in the early a.m., and I've never been able to trip the sensor; I'll give these a try.

Also, can someone please clarify something for me? When you filter up to the first car in line, do you make an effort to get the driver's attention? It's probably just me, but even when they're aimed away from me, I don't trust drivers, and try not to assume what they're going to do.

I don't make many lighted left turns, but when I do I try to sit behind the last vehicle in line; usually the next car slides up next to me, and less often they'll wait behind me. I am slow, so I try not to take the lane in that instance; so far, so good.