PaulRivers

I recently ordered, received, and had installed a "Busch&Müller 4DToplight Senso Multi" dynamo tail light:




However, I was unpleasantly surprised to find that it apparently is rather inadequate as a dymamo rear light. As far as I can tell, it only has 3 settings:
1. Off
2. Dynamo Powered (turns off when the wheel stops spinning, though, so no standlight).
3. Always on (runs off batteries if wheel isn't spinning). Doesn't ever turn off until you flip the switch to #1 or #2.

It's wired up through a Lumotec Cyo front light.

Does anyone else own one - am I missing something? Is there a way to get it to act like a dynamo light with a standlight - turning on when the bike starts moving, and turning off automatically several minutes after the bike stops moving?

Please? :-) The only other alternative I have at the moment is this ugly ass tail light:

(edited so it's not confusing - the above pic is the light I currently have)
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/imag...s/B&M325al.jpg

:-(

P.S. Also, is everyone elses switch on the light really flimsy and difficult to get into the middle position without accidentally leaving it in one of the other positions? It seem real finicky.

ollo_ollo

It comes with & without the stand light, you needed the one that says "Standlicht" on top. If it doesn't say that, you don't have the stand light. I use a Seculight model mounted on my rear fender & it is very bright. It draws little power, as my generator easily powers it along with my lumotec headlight and standard halogen tail light. Can't comment on the switch.

PaulRivers

I think it says DToplight on the top, like in the picture, but I'll check:


Hmm, if you use a SEculight maybe I could just mount the Seculite or the DToplight 4D that's meant for the fender on the back of the rack. That's an idea!

Does anyone else have the DToplight 4D'TOPLIGHT senso multi dynamo light on their bike?

jdmitch

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/taillights.asp

Might help...

PaulRivers

Thanks, but that's how I found the light and it's pretty ambigous -

"The Busch&Müller 4DToplight Senso Multi can be powered by batteries or any 6 volt dynamo. Two LEDs in the center, and an LED on each side make for increased visibility. A three position switch allows automatic switching from battery power to dynamo power when you start and stop. And is case of a wire failure, the batteries will keep your taillight "on". The bike must be moving for the Senso function to turn on the lights. So they won't switch on while your bike is parked overnight. Wiring not included. $ 41.50 ".

jdmitch

From what I understand from B&M's labelling

Plus = Standlicht = Standlight (stays on for some period of time when wheels stop spinning but doesn't stay on permanent)

It appears, you really wanted was the Busch&Müller DToplight XS Plus

What you have automatically switches to battery if the bike stops, which is slightly different.

PaulRivers

Well, I guess I should tell the whole story.

I bought a new bike (a Civia Hyland) and it came with a dynamo front hub and a Shimano dynamo light. The Shimano light is craptastic - it has no standlight so it's not even a useful "be seen" light, uses a halogen bulb which puts light out about 10 feet in front of you max, it has a 2nd led that blinks while you're riding (again, no standlight on that either) that you can't turn off (I prefer to turn off my lights in this one particularly sketchy area) and no way to hook up a tail light.

So I went online and did a bunch of research about dynamo lights. I ended up buying a Lumotec Cyo as it appeared to have 90% of the light output and illumination of the higher priced lights (like the Schmidt Edelux and the Supernova e3) for half the cost ($110 vs $200). I ordered it, had it installed (that was a trip, to, but it's a whole 'nother story"). It's worked great - the beam pattern is really very useful, and I can't believe a dynamo light puts out this kind of light - it's all I ever need for fair weather riding in the complete dark, and almost all I need for riding in the rain and with intermittent street lights (I really like a lot of light, and to be fair I complained that my $400 Dinotte 600L light didn't quite shine out far enough either). But really - a very worthwhile purchase.

So then I took a look at the dynamo rear lights. According to my reading of the Peter White site, the "DToplight XS Plus" was the only rack mounted tail light that would work with my average 6 volt shimano dynamo (turns out I was incorrect, and he's since updated the wording on his site). It was a little ugly looking on his site, but I really liked how it looked like it was as wide as the bike and would light up an entire bar of red light on the back of my bike.



Well, I ordered it and got it, but:
1. It's even uglier in person
2. It doesn't light up the reflector part - only the middle where the LED's are lights up.

According to the Peter White site, the "6 volt Busch&Müller DToplight Plus", which also doesn't light up the entire bar across the back looks much nicer, but has been discontinued and no longer sold.

However, after this I found out that the "Busch&Müller 4DToplight Senso Multi" (the one I currently have, that I'm asking about) does actually have 4 LED's - 2 in the middle, and one on each side, so it should light up a bar the entire width of the back of the bike. It comes in a dynamo version. So I ordered it. I figured that the standlight in my front light (the Cyo) would power it, or if it didn't worst case the batteries would take the place of the standlight.

But now that I have it, my experience with it has been that:
1. The Cyo doesn't provide any standlight power to the taillight.
2. The 4DToplight doesn't appear to have a "standlight via the battery", it has "always on", "completely off", and "dynamo power w no standlight".

I tracked down the manual online today, and it says the light has these settings:

„0”: The light operates like a conventional dynamo powered rear light, battery operation is not possible.
„1”: The rear light shines permanently if batteries are installed. When the dynamo is engaged the rear light is automatically powered by the dynamo whilst riding. Without batteries or in the case of dead batteries the light works like a conventional dynamo rear light. When the dynamo is not engaged the light can be used as a battery rear light.
„S”: If the dynamo is not released the light/dark and motion sensor automatically activates the light (powered by batteries) in the case of motion and darkness or poor light. When stationary the light continues to shine for up to four minutes. Upon first using position „S” the light will automatically shine for up to four minutes regardless of external factors.

The "S" position didn't seem to work at described. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that I was spinning the front wheel but wasn't actually riding the bike around and thus the bike wasn't moving. I'd prefer a real standlight vs batteries, but at this point I'd be willing to deal with batteries that only power the light for the standlight part - even with daily riding you'd think the batteries would last a full year of riding. I'll try riding it around on "S" tonight and see what happens. If it stays on after I stop for 4 minutes, then turns off, that would be good enough.

I was just hoping that someone else had this same light and would be able to say "mine stays on when powered by the dynamo for several minutes after the bike stops moving, then turns off" or "mine doesn't stay on unless I put it on never-turn-off battery power, either".

jdmitch

So, you have the 4D Toplight Senso Multi?

I found at least one place with quite a few people that have it: https://www.cyclingforums.com/t464107.html
https://www.cyclingforums.com/archive.../t-241178.html

K6-III

Another option might be to get a Spanninga, either in rack-mount or fender-mount:

https://www.velo-orange.com/dyandli.html

PaulRivers

Oh wow, I've never seen one of those before!



That's really interesting - do you have one? Do you have any idea about how it mounts to the rack?

PaulRivers

Never mind, I found the product page online and it describes the mounting options:
https://www.spanninga.nl/xhtml/produc...?cid=13&pid=29

They also make some other more stylish dynamo lights - to bad I can't find anywhere that sells them in the US:

Arcus XS - https://www.spanninga.nl/xhtml/produc...?cid=13&pid=27


Ultra XS - https://www.spanninga.nl/xhtml/produc...?cid=13&pid=79


If anyone knows where I could buy one in the US *hint* *hint*, please leave a comment... :-)

tatfiend 

PaulRivers;

Regarding your B&M taillight. In the S switch position the dynamo is supposed to take over from the batteries once moving. The "if the dynamo is not released" refers to a bottle generator dynamo, which is what B&M makes, not being against the wheel and operating. Clear as mud, right? The batteries take over when stopped to provide full illumination rather than a reduced output standlight. The light is supposed to turn off automatically after 4 minutes or so w/o motion or dynamo input with the switch in that position. If yours does not then something is apparently defective.

The large reflectors on the sides of the light are there to meet German TUV safety regulations which require front and rear reflectors on all bicycles whether they have lights or not. They are found on virtually all European taillights. Thus their size.

BTW I agree about the inadequacy of the original equipment Civia Hyland Shimano headlight. It should be upgraded by Civia to a German headlight with standlight and a generator taillight should be included with the bike as delivered.

wahoonc

I have one of the battery powered versions of this light. It mounts using two bolts on the back that are on 80mm centers, plan on upgrading to the generator/standlight version...eventually.

Aaron

PaulRivers

Well - fyi for anyone else reading this thread, I tested it out on my bike. The Busch&Müller 4DToplight Senso Multi does NOT have any sort of standlight + auto-off function. There are 3 modes:
1. Runs off dynamo power. When you stop moving, the light immediately stops putting out light.
2. Runs off battery power - the light is always on, and never turns off automatically. Perhaps it runs off dynamo power while you're moving - the key point is that it never turns off automatically.
3. (S) Runs off dynamo power. When you stop moving, the light immediately stops putting out light. How is this different than #1, I have no idea. Maybe it's like the "auto daylight savings time" function on my alarm clock, which says it works but doesn't actually work.

I would add that before someone tells me that I hooked it up wrong, it's just not possible. There's only 2 wires to hook up - and if those didn't work, the dynamo light mode wouldn't have worked. I had put in the batteries wrong, mode #2 wouldn't have worked with the bike standing still. Also, though the manual specifically says "Upon first using position „S” the light will automatically shine for up to four minutes regardless of external factors", this was not the case - upon switching to S mode the light remained off, only coming on when I spun the front wheel.

If someone else has this exact light (the dynamo version, not the purely battery powered version) installed on their bike and it works differently, I'd love to hear from you - perhaps my particular one is defective. And if you know of another, different dynamo powered light that would work for me please let me know (that Spanninga looks interesting, thanks). But I just want to repeat again:

The Busch&Müller 4DToplight Senso Multi does NOT have any sort of standlight + auto-off function. It's either permanently on, or only on while the bike is moving (while the dynamo is providing power).

PaulRivers

Hey, maybe you could give me some critical information even with the battery powered version - it's single LED at the top that looks clear - does it give off red light, or white light?

I ask not only because is looks white, but also because pics on the official website show the Arcus XS being a white light when it's on, while the pics show the Ultra XS being a red light when it's on (couldn't find pics of the Vector XS running).

tatfiend 

Paul;

I just finished wiring up my 4D Toplite Senso Multi and checking it out. Earlier just used it as a battery powered taillight due to inertia on my part. With the switch in the S position it acts as follows.

Any substantial movement of the bike turns it on, running on battery. If the bike is not moved further the light goes off after about 4 minutes.

Spinning the front wheel causes it to run on the generator. If done gently enough to not operate the motion sensor in the taillight then the battery operated standlight function did not come on when the front wheel stopped rotating. Apparently generator and battery operation work in conjunction with one another, influenced by the motion sensor electronics and presumably the ambient light sensor.

It sounds to me like you received a defective unit that does not have the motion sensor and time out electronics working. It could be defective electronics or a defective switch. No way to tell without schematics.

I hope that this is some help to you in determining where your problem lies.

PaulRivers

Hey, thanks a bunch for letting me know. Sounds like either:
1. I have a defective unit
2. I should have run it around in the dark

That's the info I needed - thanks!

CliftonGK1

If you're really stuck on getting the B&M brand lights, then my advice will be of no help. If you're not particular to brand, then read on.

I just installed a Supernova E3 3-LED tail light yesterday afternoon, and it works incredibly well. First, let me say that since I use exclusively LED lighting, I leave my lights on 100% of the time so there are no concerns with 'motion sensing' or 'light sensing' mechanisms. Always on, no worries.
I was at my LBS and saw the hulking enormity of the 4D Toplight and immediately dropped it from my list. My commuter is also my brevet bike, it has no rack, and I wasn't about to attempt rigging up a mount for that monstrosity. The E3, OTOH, is about the size of 2 sugar cubes on a mounting plate which is just wide enough to span the mount holes on a standard rear rack. It weighs about as much as a pair of AAA batteries if you include the wiring and all the hardware.

I used a pair of p-clips to mount the light above my brake bridge on the seat stay. This angles the light back and up, and I've aimed it slightly out toward the traffic lane. The E3 tail light is 180-degree viewable, so even with the angled placement it is very visible. Additionally, the thing is just insanely bright. On the unlighted MUP I looked down and back at it while riding and saw that in addition to throwing a nice red wash over my rear fender, it illuminates the underside of my seat bag and my reflective triangle hanging from the bag-loops on my saddle.

PaulRivers

Thanks, that's useful info. And the Supernova dynamo lights looked like good lights. I believe, though, that the Supernova tail light requires you to also own the Supernova front light in order to be hooked up, and uses power from the front light for it's standlight function. So even if you could wire it up to a non-Supernova front light, the taillight wouldn't stay on when you stopped.

The Supernove e3 looks like an excellent front light. But know for me, when I added it up -

Supernova - E3 front light $215, Taillight $70, Total - $285
Busch and Mueller - Cyo front light $111.25 , 4D tail light $41.50, Total - $152.75

The Busch and Mueller Cyo lighting setup cost half as much, while the online reviews said the Busch and Mueller Cyo had about 90% of the light output as the Supernova e3. And you could cut $20 off if you went with a cheaper tail light. Maybe they'll come out with an upgrade to the e3. But fyi, that's why I went with the Busch and Mueller stuff. And I believe that standlight issue would keep me from getting their tail light, as well. :-(

CliftonGK1

Paul,
On Supernova's website, there's a Contact Us email for support and tech questions. Pop them an email and ask if the standlight feature will work if it's wired to the Cyo. I asked them a few questions about the E3 before I bought mine, and they were quick (under 3 days) to get back with me about tech concerns.

tatfiend 

I noticed when installing my batteries that the motion sensor is a small metal piece wuth 2 holes in it. It is strung on two wires on the circuit board inside the light. Presumably motion/shocks cause it to break electrical contact momentarily, activating the light when the switch is in the S position. I checked this in my basement so it might well be deactivated in bright sunlight. Try moving the bike in the garage or at night with the switch in the S position to see if the motion sensor works. Also open up the light and inspect for the small metal piece and see if it is free to move on the wires.

positron

The rear light will not work with any other light than the headlight. It runs off DC current. The supernova e3 headlight converts the AC from the dynohub to dc for the taillight. they must be used in conjunction...

this combination is great. I highly recommend it, even though i prefer the edelux for city riding with ambient lighting since it is focused on the road surface, it seems brighter. For truly dark rides, the e3 provides more overall illumination (sides of roads etc), in addition to an incredible taillight.

one apparently cannot connect the supernova taillight to the edelux, or the iq cyo etc. (without electrical jerryrigging).

edit, this info is from peter white, and gregor arndt at supernova. I have not personally tried it...yet

CliftonGK1

He's the one who gave me all the info about wiring dual E3 lights on my SON28; I trust what he's got to say.

Achim

I have a TOPLIGHT Flat plus which I run together with a Fly IQ in the front driven by a Shimano 3N80 dynamo. This setup provides excellent light (IMHO) and has a standlight function for both, the front as well as the rear light (powered by condenser, no batteries needed). It sounds as if this is the setup you are looking for.

positron

not to hijack the thread, but how are you doing this, can you please PM me?

thanks,