the funisher

Being in Chicago has definitely made me look at self defense while cycling. First off the best protection is staying away from dangerous areas and staying alert. However, when some lunatic comes at you for trying to speak up against their smallmindedness, a non-lethal weapon may be needed. I have also had friends mugged by groups or hit buy cars and run off the road while cycling by muggers. Gotta love Chicago. I looked into a lot of different weapons to carry on me incase I need to defend myself as a last resort. Manrikis, maces, knuckles, knifes, and even a small collectable baseball bat. Turns out my long kryptonite hardened steel chain would definitely dent some skulls if it ever came down to it and it would be good for defendeing against a group. It's basically a bicycle mace! And wouldn't ya know it doubles as one of my bike loocks [= It also doesn't add any extra weight to your bag becuase you already carry it as a lock. If they have a gun your F'ed but I guess you would be no matter what anyway. I had a situation last year where I was being apporached by some thugs and I pulled that sucker out and they started walking the other way real fast. So i recommend staying alert and be careful and smart. If that doesn't work, yank out that bicycle lock!

sr105

I carry a Ruger LCP. If commuting, I can put it in my pocket or in a quick access pocket on my cycling backpack. If I'm exercising on the weekend, I have a small bag that sits on my top tube just behind the head tube. The LCP fits in there with room to spare. Every few years or so, some idiot gets the bright idea to rob cyclists on the county trail. I've ridden home numerous times at night. I never plan to use my weapon and I would flee before using it, but if I can't flee, my attacker is getting shot.

On a related note, I find the best protection is a high-lumen helmet-mounted headlight. If I'm riding at night I can easily light up shadowy corners and bushes with a turn of my head. Bonus, I've avoided some major crashes by having good lighting and avoiding road hazards and f*!#ing rabbits running in front of me.

sr105

If I lived in an area like this, I'd strap a GoPro camera to my helmet and use it to press charges.

Null66

Nope:
No longer single.

Sharpshin

AAAAAAAAAAK!!! This repeated TWICE here.....

MOST actual incidents of successful self-defense with a firearm involve merely producing a weapon. As in this case, criminals usually want victims, not life or death gunfights.

1) Pointing a gun at someone without legal justification is indeed aggrivated assault AKA assault with a deadly weapon and classed as a felony. The same as actually shooting a person would be.

2) Drawing a gun and pointing it at someone under legally justified circumstance (ie. what a reasonable person would consider imminent grave danger to oneself or other innocents) is as legal as shooting them under the same circumstance.

Of course expect this to be determined by first a grand jury and then possibly a trial. In either case involving thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Long story short; if junior jumped out of a vehicle and rushed me as described I would first run, and let him have the bike. For what a lawyer would cost I could buy several new bikes.I would never draw a handgun unless in the gravest extreme circumstance.

All that being said, once you get used to the freedom of being able to carry a handgun if you want, one becomes reluctant to give that up.

I have lived thirteen years in urban Working Class England (childhood), ten years in suburban New York State (teens through college), and twenty four years in Texas. Only real difference with respect to violent crime is here in Texas I can have a gun too.

And ya, that incident where a swarm of guys on motorcycles chased down and attacked an SUV in guns-verboten NYC??? Prob'ly aint going to happen in the American South or Intermountain West, LOTS of cars in those places ordinarily have guns in 'em.

Mike

Joemess

Good luck with that!

Sharpshin

Not sure of the meaning of this, but I live and work in a higher crime area of a big city, works fer me, and has been for going on twenty years now. YMMV.

Joemess

It means, just what it says.... If you think what you are doing is legal and it is working for you, then good luck with that. However, I know you are wrong in regards to the laws in SC as I have sat on a grand jury that looked a numerous brandishing cases that in your world would be seen as preventative. The morons that were indicted thought they were being preventative and were in the right too. So.... Good. Luck. With. That......

Sharpshin

Nothing thing not mentioned here... bear spray.

The pepper spray that comes in 9 to 12 oz cans, maybe $40 to $60.

I know it works on loose ranging dogs, I've used it at least six times in the last twelve years (while walking my own dogs). Like I said elsewhere here today; two rotts, two pits, a boxer and a big yellow mutt. Advertised range 10 to 30 feet, basically a non-lethal projectile weapon. As much as anything that 20ft plus blast seems to startle the dog and snap it out of attack mode. It IS expensive to replace every time but still much cheaper than vets or doctors.

Never had to pull it out when confronted by a human but I imagine it would have deterrent value.

Mike

Sharpshin

Can you quote actual convictions so we can look up info?

I mean all this should be public information.

I'm curious to see if these cases "in my world" would be considered legit.

Thanks,
Mike

Joemess

Here is a plethora of info

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=brandishing+a+c...on+convictions

Feel free to read to your hearts content. I am stepping out of this discussion at this point for the following reasons...

1. Life's to short to suffer fools
2. I know the law where I live and where I carry
3. You cannot distinguish what "is" from what you "want"



“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”
― Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon

Sharpshin

Well, that's a real pity, I was hoping for a substantive response. This is a matter of no small concern to me. I suspect you have been confusing "If you draw it you better use it" with "If you draw it you'd better be legally and morally PREPARED to use it".

I will say this; a concealed handgun can become one of the things you carry every day, like your keys, your wallet, your phone. Unlike all those daily items however, you will not use your handgun every day, in fact the vast majority of folks who carry will never draw a handgun in times of need at all.

Most all of us, at one time or another, will lose, misplace or forget our keys, our wallet and/or our phone. Any of these occurrences with respect to one's handgun can result in disaster, of which one's own legal liabilities would be just a small part. Given that, and the very limited set of circumstances which it can be legally drawn, one could make a strong case for just avoiding the whole handgun issue altogether.

In view of all the incurred liabilities, a concealed handgun can feel a whole lot like a ball and chain.

It is important to note however that most times a gun is drawn under justifiable circumstances the imminent violent crime is deterred without bloodshed.

Mike

buzzman

Is that so? And you come to this conclusion based on what evidence?- (outside of anecdotes and assumptions.)

What I'm asking is:

"Can you quote actual cases so we can look up info?

I mean all this should be public information.

I'm curious to see if these cases 'in my world' would be considered legit."

Actually, you needn't bother. I just stopped into this thread for "entertainment purposes only". I find these "I ride and carry threads" tragi-comically hysterical.

Sharpshin

OK, with the understanding that this is a bicycle board I'll keep this as brief and entertaining as possible.

Hard to get outside of anecdotes in something like this, but after all, one woman's anecdote can become a political party's important piece of evidence (Let's call this the "Sandra Fluck Effect"). But, if one collects thousands of anecdotes normalized by means of a directed survey, that then becomes either a "landmark study" or a "total croc" depending upon one's biases.

John Lott has published on this, and been justifiably attacked by actual statiticians (see https://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2003/03/30/lottreply8/ ), however few take issue with Lott's contention that most of the time, under legally justifiable circumstances, brandishing deterred the crime.

Hmmm.... as a demonstration of the principle of brandishing to deter, do the Korean store owners standing on their roofs with shotguns during the Watts riots constitute an "actual case" or an anecdote?

Not on film; eight cases of brandishing, one actual shooting, and one actual murder in the absence of a firearm involving people known to me personally. Make of them what you will.

#1 ) Lawyer in New Orleans and
#2 ) Retired Cop in Florida, both of whom stood guard over their property brandishing firearms after major hurricanes and deterred presumed looters (in both cases other properties in the area were looted).

#3 ) Friend in Houston, wrong side of town early hours of the morning, merely lifted his handgun into sight when party of delinquent looking local young men crossed the street specifically to interact with him inside his parked vehicle.

#4 ) Woman, highway rest area, early hours of the morning, approached in her vehicle by delinquent looking young man.
#5 ) Motorcyclist, napping on highway rest area table late at night, approached by delinquent looking man. In both this and the previous case the suspicious individual merely returned to the shadows
#6 ) Motorcyclist, highway rest area late at night, came out to find one of a party of three outlaw biker-looking types actually sitting on my friend's motorcycle while demanding the keys. They climbed back into their pick-up and drove off after he displayed a firearm (hadgun in shoulder holster inside his jacket).

Not to suggest all or even many rest areas are dangerous, I've napped at lots myself, including on the ground next to my motorcycle. But if ya want to sit and watch actual drug exchanges go down. like one after another, go and rest after dark at the one on I 10 just west of El Paso/Juarez

#7 ) Truck driver, South Texas Eagle Ford oilfield ( high drug and illegal immigrant trafficking area), approached by several individuals on foot out in the brush at night.

None of the above reported to the police by either party. Only in case #8 I believe was a gun actually pointed at anybody.

#8 ) Rancher, South Texas, just this week, miles from any road encountered and surrounded by group of twelve Chinese Nationals. He drew his gun, had them get into the back of his truck, drove them to the main ranch house barn, and gave them food and water while waiting for the Border Patrol.

The case involving an actual shooting.....
#9 ) Three doors down from me, several years back, retired neighbor shoots and kills an intruder in his home.

...and the murder....

#1 0) It may be that the intruder in #9 would have fled if given the chance, but in an exactly similar case we had a student several years back actually arrested on-campus after murdering an elderly man in his home that very morning (part of a gang initiation). Since the victim was struck on the head with a heavy tool, brandishing a firearm if he had one may have saved his life.

Running long here, as I said make of it what you will. You should know that you ridicule from Massachussetts what is pretty much normal practice over more than half the United States: If your travels have taken you anywhere in the American South or Intermountain West you have been around literally hundreds of discretely carried or transported firearms. Heck, in Vermont just ANYBODY who can legally own a handgun can stick one in their pocket when they go out and about, no tests or permits required, tho' I doubt all that may do up there.

Which brings up another point: Lott was justly castigated for claiming that more guns meant less crime. I agree with a recent Harvard Law study that found no correlation either way.

However, having grown up in shaved-headed, steel-toed Working Class England during the "Clockwork Orange" era, I will observe that the fun-loving lily-White residents of gun-free Glasgow even today somehow contrive to have a murder rate three times that of the 80% Brown residents of San Antonio TX (one of the largest poverty areas in the US), where we are all knee deep in handguns, relatively speaking.

YMMV,
Mike

DetroitSchwinn

I live and work in Detroit, Michigan and I don't carry a gun or knife.

Sharpshin

Where you live and work, how likely are you to be a victim of violent crime?

DetroitSchwinn

When I am downtown and home not likely, however the commute goes through a few rough spots. The primary reason I don't is that I'm not sure I could pull a trigger... And if you aren't ready for that you shouldn't have a firearm (IMHO)...

Sharpshin

Well done. And I hope I've made it clear that I myself would give up the bike and run and run and run some more before I'd draw a handgun. And any sort of knife or club I'm not sure I'd have the skillset to use.

One thing I'm learning quick around here too is that there are LOTS of older (as in less valuable) bikes perfectly good for commuting, especially steel framed mountain bikes. Just this morning I slapped a set of Serfas Drifters on a thirty year old Rockhopper, elastomer fork the works, one of the ORIGINAL mountain bikes, with near road bike geometry :cool:

Mike

DetroitSchwinn

I keep waffling about taking a Mixed Martial arts or Modern Arnis class just for basic self defense.

WonderMonkey

I'm a gun owner and concealed carrier. I will repeat what some have said. I would back away safely if able and let him have the bike. If he then moves to threaten me I would draw with intent to use unless the situation changed real quick. Our conceal instructor said that if you feel in danger enough to draw then you should then fire because if you don't feel the need to fire then you should not have drawn. However, a lot can change in the time between starting a draw and finishing a draw and the person has that amount of time to change the situation. If that happens you have another problem. That person could then go back to their vehicle and get THEIR gun, etc. So.... carrying is a huge responsibility, one that should not be taken lightly. And you need to KNOW what your local laws are and be prepared to work within them, else you will face the consequences.

Sharpshin

In terms of practical skills learned quickly I have heard great things about krav magaa (spelling?) that Israeli stuff.

Mike

WonderMonkey

Yes that's good. Using MMA for self-defense will take you quite a bit of time. If you are looking for very a very effective means of defending yourself a series of Krav Maga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga) classes can help. Nothing replaces sustained and constant training for some people that's not what they are going to do. In place of that you need something. For example even though I have a background (way way back) in certain things I fall back to some very simple methods that can be used by many if needed. Obviously the first is awareness, avoidance, etc. but defense and then disable are there to be called upon if needed.

WonderMonkey

It's good you are aware of that. For people who are nervous about carrying and have their license I have them carry without one in the chamber. That allows them to step their way into it and then make a decision. I remember the first time I carried (concealed) I was so hyper aware that if I walked into a restaurant by the time I got to the back I could tell you something about everybody in the whole room. I was a wreck. I was also a much calmer person on the highway because I knew that I now had a responsibility to not allow my emotions to control me. And so on.

ShooFlyPie

I have had three occasions where I have had to deal with macho man get out of their vehicle. Two males in trucks, one male in a Jaguar with his wife. One of my faults is that I can get pretty arrogant with a sharp sarcastic tone to drivers feel the need to stop for confrontations. Both the Jag and one of the pickup drivers were with their wives, and rather large out of shape older men. In both incidents they turned around and got back into their vehicle after exposing my chain/lock and insulting their rather large size in front of the wives. In both incidents I asked their wife why she would marry such a angry ahole that would try to run bikers of the road. That didn't bode well with the one pickup truck driver though. After getting back in his truck he decided to be real big and bad and drive 40 mph a foot away from me, and then slam on his breaks in the bike lane in front of me. I bet his wife got real hot. He then bailed like a coward, but if I would have caught up with him I sadly could have went to far with an assault charge as I was revved up. I try not to let something really get to me to start a confrontation unless I perceive it as a threat. Such as a pickup who tried to intimidate me making a left in front of him by trying to ride me off the road. The jackass than said bikes shouldn't be on the road which isn't something you don't want to tell me. That coward sped off. There is a biker in Pittsburgh doing 5 years for using his u-lock on a driver he had a heated exchange with. I don't need 5 years from cycling myself, but my lock is ready in defense and that is all I have.

I mostly try to avoid confrontation. But it happens, and sometimes like the ones above they were actually just angry men mad because a cyclist was in their way going home following the laws. But the most I do is sit on my bike and get my lock ready. If they get within swinging range I will lay them out and plead self defense. If they have a gun, I guess I will use my speed and get away. I worry the most about them using their vehicles the most though.

Bike Gremlin

What about firing a warning shot? In the air, or the ground if you're in the city?