Abneycat

Well, I answered the legal end of your post, now for the other end.

Although the electric bicycle is a power assisted means of transport, do you not recognize that these riders face the same riding conditions as you, maintain their bicycles in the same manner, follow the same rules (so long as they remain classified as an e-bike, and don't go beyond those specifications), and that a great majority of them also pedal their bicycles along, same as before - simply netting greater end result through the assistance, for the utilitarian purposes of daily life.

In the end, if you were to ignore the motor, the riding experience is pretty much the same. That's why I personally *do* define them as bicycles.

As someone who rides cross country, touring, owns a folder, has owned a recumbent, has worked in professional bicycle shops and currently works as a bicycle mechanic, i've got to say, the riding experience is really pretty much the same to me. Same maintenance, same riding, same pedaling, nearly getting run over by angry SUV moms, whatever. Exception being that there's power assist, but it doesn't replace the bicycle, it augments it. That's a critical difference between what is legally defined as an e-bike and what is a moped.

You might not understand this without experiencing it for yourself, but in the end the only difference that comes out of it when I decide to take my electric cargo bike instead of another ride is that I put in a similar effort, but get more out of it - not for recreation, but for practicality, and the ride is still pretty much like any of my other bikes.

I'd like to think that "cyclists" who weren't simply "bike snobs" would recognize that even if they don't believe they share the same title as the e-bikers, they share a very similar lifestyle, and that the groups should be accepting of that fact rather than embittered. People don't need to recognize my electric bicycle as a "bicycle" if it bothers them to do so, but ignoring the realities of the similarity is simply pointless. I'm getting a bit tired of people coming in here to stir up trouble when they don't quite understand what they're even getting on about.

Any electric user coming onto bikeforums could use commuting, winter, utility, LCF, recreation, 50+, clydes, bike mechanics, and a couple of others as an immense resource, as it all has potential relevance. And there are certainly those in utility and possibly others interested in electric resources, so there's definite merit in getting over it and getting more people out on the road on 2 wheels.

recumelectric

Maybe we should just walk or run from place to place. Bicycles are a fairly new piece of technology in the grand scheme of human evolution. Perhaps we've gotten too lazy in the last century from pedaling.

recumelectric

OK all,

In Ziemas' defense, I noticed that his first post was mainly a question. He wanted to know how much we really pedaled as opposed to relying purely on the motors. I think that's a legitimate question, when asked in the spirit of curiosity. There are various answers to that question, depending on the rider and his/her particular set-up. ...If the bike shop owner that I origninally posted on had asked me that, in addition to asking how fast I really go, how heavy the motor is, etc., he could have responded to me more rationally.

Let's not confuse his question with pacificaslim's erroneous jumping in without knowing which board he was on.

recumelectric

By the way, my inspiration for the original post was a bike shop owner's total rejection of the concept. In fact, his rejection was so intense that he rejected me and any questions I had, even though many were unrelated to the issue of an electric motor. He responded to my question about switching out a seat or handlebar set by saying, "No, too much impact," and then ranting about the dangers of a motor. It surprised me that anyone, especially a bike shop owner who hears it all, would react with such intensity.

...I think we could react with a little less intensity from the other side, as well. The questions that are being raised here, in addition to the shop owner's reaction, indicate to me that the concept of e-bike is not well understood.

Additionally, I have read some pretty wild stories here in the ebike section. Stories about folks who load up carts of batteries and folks who haul @$$ at 40 mph, etc.. I'm not judging people who do these experiments. (In fact, I'm quite curious.) However, I do think that they accept a higher level of risk with the equipment than I do with my "limited to 20 mph, proprietary battery" Bionx kit. I also know that mine is legally classified as a bicycle, while the higher power rigs are not.

...Meanwhile, we do discuss all of these variations, and even the gas powered motor, within this forum. Again, I'm not judging negatively, because I think all of these discussions are interesting and have huge implications for the future of transportation. Nonetheless, it may be our willingness to push the theoretical, legal, and physical boundaries that generates confusion for those who don't use ebikes.

The interchangeable use of terms like "moped," "motorized bicycle," "ebike," etc. doesn't imply any type of slur or attack, in my mind. Instead, I see it as a reflection of the various gray areas within this domain. I think it's helpful to clarify some distinctions without becoming upset that someone else "mis-used" a term.

Can't we all just get along?

Doug5150

It's probably mostly a liability thing.
~

dewdad

The ICBC in BC helps its citizens by showing pictures of different styles of e-bikes. This helps people who get caught up in semantics. This should help some of the posters who are a little confused about the different styles. Remember kids, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others shouldn't have the choice.
https://www.icbc.com/registration/reg...std_cycles.asp

recumelectric

Interesting. One of the ebikes really looked like a small scooter to me. Once again, distinctions are blurred.

The statements about what legally constitutes an ebike or pedal assisted bike made things a lot more clear, though. Pretty much the same info I got when researching on my state's legal site and reading here. No more than 500 Watts (in California) and no more than 20 mph. ...And oh yeah, they really are made for pedaling.

Abneycat

Those "scooter" e-bikes are definitely not made for pedaling. They're surviving for now, but are becoming noticed - now banned in Alberta due to their weight, other states and provinces are also banning, reclassifying, or re-evaluating them. *These* I can't relate with bicycles, much at all.

Those things are in excess of 150lbs, without properly designed drivetrains, and impractical to move about under human power. Very different from what one can achieve with a good bike and a conversion kit.

recumelectric

Yeah, it seems more worth it to choose a scooter or an ebike, depending on what you prefer. I don't see any advantage to riding a 20 mph vehicle that you can't pedal.

dewdad

Alternatives are needed for short commuters and that is what a scooter style bike is..another alternative. One that is attractive to some people when a bicycle is not. The aim is to attract
people out of their cars. Bicycles, do it for some, open frame with motors for another bunch and scooter style for yet but more. Besides if we went by public opinion bicylists would be off the roads as well. Thousands of motorists do not like us. I ride a bike and sometimes a scooter style e-bike. I don't see what the negativity is about. It is nice to have choices but it is nicer to allow choices. Alberta doesn't want electric bikes...go figure. If you are travelling at 25 kph, who cares whether it is manual or battery? Cyclists are always getting the bad rap and now they have a chance to point the finger...so they do.

nivekdodge

This is probably the reason behind a lot of this. Some will do it to see what they can get away with thru "leg bone conected to the thigh bone" Logic. this summer when gas was up at 4+ a gallon I spoke with a local cop that was told if people are riding something small but doing it safe let em go. He did have to cite a guy in a suit on a minature "pit bike" commuting to work . He caught him on the ramp to the expressway.

Tourezrick

First - my apologies to any I may have offended in my original post. I will take Ziemas at his word that he was only looking for answers to questions he had.

Second - I live in a city where any rendition of "You people" or "You folks" is grounds for not just a fight, but often the prelude to getting sued, at best, or shot, at worst. Simply, we recognize it as the derisive term it is meant to be, but Ziemas did not say those words, someone else did.

Third - 34 years of teaching in a city filled with 'gangbangers' has left me attuned to the meaning behind the words and the way in which they are delivered. That's a survival technique as valuable as carrying more than your basic load and knowing in which direction the shots came from. Questions can be asked in a way that shows prejudice or an open mind. Being a teacher, I live to teach others, even though I have been retired for four years, but I have little tolerance for being played.

Lastly - the Sioux had a phrase, "Akicita mahnee yo" (and that may not be the way a Sioux would write it - just a phonetic rendering) which means "Observe everything as you walk", meaning, 'Watch your surroundings and don't jump in the water if you don't know what's at the bottom'.

OK, I lied, there is one more - take the motor (gas or electric) off a moped and you have a very heavy thing, almost impossible to pedal and ride for any distance, and no one will mistake it for a bike. Take the motor off an assisted bike and - amazingly - you have a BIKE that rides as well as before the motor was put on it. Now, is that a surprise to any of us? And, again - who among the 'purist' mountain or road bike riders is willing to trade in what they ride for the 'Boneshaker', as shown in the attachment and also called the "Draisine" or "Laufmaschine" from 1820 - the first, the real, the 'pure' bike? Is there a line forming, anyone, anywhere?

Abneycat

Sorry, I didn't mean to be completely negative about them - i'm not. Having more options is great, its just that they don't relate to me. They are very heavy and not built to be great bicycles. As a bicycle mechanic as well, i've not seen one yet that really has the same workings or design as a bicycle aside from the basic drivetrain they add. I do appreciate that there are alternatives on the road, but they seem more like LSM's than e-bikes. Personally, I don't have any trouble with them being classified as e-bikes anymore though, as i've got to the point where anything is good to bring more light vehicles onto the road, and although they personally seem like LSM's, I don't think they're at a power level where people should be concerned about licensing either.

Alberta does allow electric bicycles, and their legislation is one of the most lenient in the country. They did however add a weight limit which resulted in most scooter style bicycles being unable to be classified as e-bikes. Saying they are outright banned though, is incorrect. I'm sorry about providing that information.

dewdad

Abneycat...thanks for clarifying your thoughts. While not for everyone, there are thousands enjoying them for their short commutes, and why not...they're fun for who finds them fun.
To insure them, and licence them would be their demise. Who wants to pay money to go 30 kph? On my bicycle
one of the best feelings is coasting along without pedalling, and that is the feeling you get on a scooter style e-bike as well...even uphill.

recumelectric

+1

recumelectric

Hey, a fellow teacher of "difficult" kids.

Honestly, I started to take offense at Zeimas' question until I re-read the thread and thought about it. There was a little antagonism already going on, and Zeimas' question kind of popped up at the wrong time.

Unfortunately, it's harder to tell on the internet whether one is being "played" or not. We don't have access to the same nuances (looks, nods, eye rolls, giggles, everyone's history and social network, etc.) that we notice in our classrooms. ...At the same time, the unclear motivation of an internet poster might not matter so much as the motivation of a student in a class. If a legitimate question is asked online (regardless of intent), a productive discussion that is helpful for others can result. ...In some classrooms, a dangerous type of chaos can result from the same activity, as you and I well know.

...Now, back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

dewdad

Just for the record, I would never refer to scooter style e-bikes as bicycles. I will however fight to the end that they should remain classified with power assisted bicycles and remain unlicenced and uninsured and available to those who appreciates and has a use for one. Just as a van is not a car, but both considered motor vehicles, my goal is for the government and its people to recognize these as e-bikes that fall under the power assisted bicycle act as a result of their limited speed. I personally refer to them as scooter style e-bikes and open frame e-bikes myself when explaining to people the different kinds available. In my work and in my mission I am a great defender of both styles as well as of course the traditional bicycle. My work is done here...Onto the next thread...lol

Tourezrick

"If a legitimate question is asked online (regardless of intent), a productive discussion that is helpful for others can result. " says recumelectric. Some questions ARE legit - others, I call 'wife beaters', and, "How much pedaling do 'you folks' do?" is a prime example. What is the intent behind the question - and why does it matter to the questioner? I believe such a questioner is making a 'slick' statement hidden behind a question, namely, "I'm better/more manly than you, I don't need assist at all!" "How much does your rig weigh, what kind of avg. speed can you maintain with/without assist, how many Hp does your hub produce, how many watthrs/mile do you use on average, did you build it yourself or is it off the shelf, how much did it cost?", etc. are legit questions with no ulterior motive. I'll gladly answer those 'genuine' questions, go out of my way to post pics and try to be helpful in any way my rather limited knowledge of the subject allows. I think that is the nature of those that think/experiment outside of the box.

Oh, fwiw, I haven't received one single request from a 'real' cyclist wanting to trade in his/her ride for a 'real' bike, a 'Laufsmaschine'!What am I going to do with all of them I ordered in anticipation of being flooded with requests? Where are all the 'real' cyclists? Shopping? Wonder if there is a restocking fee on 'Laufsmaschines'?

Duracutter

It might be simpler than that. Look at the bickering that has ensued after those statements from
Pacificaslim.

I've been admin on a large site a few years back, and I saw this often. I used the term troll in a few posts in this thread but no one has even picked up on it. Some posters just want to stir the pot and take great pleasure in what happens next. All the attention. I know it's hard for the average poster to see a troll as they are because it's hidden behind "I was just asking a question". Bullsquid. Those type of people are everywhere but it's harder to identify them online.

The best thing for a troll is to ignore them...

recumelectric

...And/or refuse to engage in infighting as a result of a question. If you want to assume it's legit, then answer. If you don't, then ignore.

I've been accused of trolling on BF just because I posted about wearing earplugs, which I think is a legit issue for cyclists. I don't really know how one proves he/she is not a troll. I've seen the accusations fly about several other posters, even if they have been on BF for a long time.

And how exactly is trolling defined? Is it posing a question that may irritate some, a lot, the majority, or? ...I tend to look at trolling as instigating issues, stealing identities, or selling products while having little to no interest in the primary content of the board overall. If we expand the definition to include everyone who writes annoying or controversial comments or questions, that's a pretty big net.

Why not discuss items of interest, ignore those that are of no interst, remain non-emotional, and move on?

Duracutter

The way we looked at defining a troll was different and I'm sure everyone has a various ways of doing it, but in general if the poster incites discord just for arguments sake, I think the following posts will tell you if it was a genuine question or just inciting anger. If you read the posts after pacificism, there is a lot of bickering because the question he posed was an assenine question in an electric bike forum.

He's saying electric bikes are not bikes in a bike forum where we all know we do ride bikes that have electric assist.

It's easy to do on the net, there is no physical presence. If I physically entered a club and told them they're not riding bikes because they have electric assist and persisted in my verbal assault like pacificism does, I'm sure I'd be carried out on a stretcher or at best my face would be rearranged.
On the net, there seems to be fewer consequences, so it happens more often.

In any case, I pointed it out because it needs to...

recumelectric

I agree that pacificifism was being antagonistic. I think he admitted later that he had stumbled into the wrong biker bar. (He didn't realize he was in the ebikes forum.)

JeffS

That argument's fine if someone's telling you that electric bicycles should not exist. It doesn't really address the conversation of how they should be classified.

I am in here because I'm considering an assist for my wife, and possibly for a load-hauling bike for myself. I'm not sure what I would classify them as personally. Mandatory pedaling would make me say bicycle while these e-scooters with removable pedals seem strongly moped/scooter. Everything else is gray area.

I suspect that government will eventually standardize on the 20mph rule to define bicycle... at which point there will still be people arguing that their 30+mph capable vehicle is still a bicycle because they can pedal if they want to.

martybucs

I would say my bicycle, with a Bionx kit, is still a bicycle. I could just use the switch to power the bike without pedaling, but with my weight and the terrain in my area, that wouldn't get me very far - maybe a few miles.
So, to go any appreciable distance, with the assist helping keep speed up on hills, you HAVE TO pedal to make the electric assist practical for the purpose of going a greater distance, with a heavy load, easier.

When I'm towing, I'm towing over 100lbs, so including myself and my bike the whole pkg. is over 330lbs. The electric assist, with me pedaling, makes it possible to cover a greater distance in a shorter amount of time. With that much weight, I can go 7 miles, (a regular route I take/14 mi. roundtrip), in under 20 minutes on hilly terrain. I can do it unassisted, but it takes much longer and that makes it not so practical a transportation choice for me.

dewdad

When I am addressing both styles, I refer to them as either "open frame" electric bicycle or "scooter style" electric bicycle. To call one, a "scooter" or a "moped" would be an innacurate description since a moped refers to a gas powered vehicle that requires special licencing. Just as calling an open frame electric bicycle a "bicycle" would be an innacurate description of what exactly one is talking about. Not as misleading as JUMBO SHRIMP. LOL They should both however be classified as "power assited bicycles" and that way the same laws apply to each. Handle bar to handle bar the scooter style is the same width as a regular bicycle. The fact that the centre of the bike is wider makes no difference on space required to "squeeze" through.