Janotaking

Hey guys! How are you all?
I'm planing to order a builder to make a frame for me, and I'm not certain about the tubes Im going to ask! Im 1.91m and 95Kg, I will use the bike for training all year long and want a all around bike, that can stand my weight.
The builder haves Reynolds 531, 631, 653, Columbus SL, SLX, Nemo, and a tange that don't have any sticker or info about it. In my place what would you choose? (the frame will have lugs)

Thanks a lot guys!

Dave Kirk 

Is the builder you've chosen a professional builder? If so, what tubes would he recommend for you?


dave

Janotaking

Hey! He is a pro builder, he is a old timer, and told me what he had in there stored! I had a 15 minutes conversation with him over the phone, he said that the columbus nemo was ok for me despite my weight, and that tubbing had a good MPa don't remember how much he said! But on a quick search I saw that Nemo was not the best tubbing for me, or so was I've read! I really don't know what to choose, 753 haves more MPa then the 531 but I've read that anyone can really notice the difference. Really need some help here!
One more thing: I have a 79 Gitane TDF, 63cm ST and it comes with Reynolds 531 3 tubes reinforced, it haves that reinforced tubes because of its size or its just to get a cheaper frame? (curious thing it haves campy drops)

Thanks a lot!

unterhausen

that's a weird selection of tubing, some of it must be fairly old. At your weight, I would get something in a "OS" tube size. This is 31.8mm down tube, 28.6 seat tube and top tube. It's possible given the age of the selections that you were given that he can't build with these dimensions and the lugs he has. Tube thickness doesn't really have the effect you want, you need larger diameters

Janotaking

Yeah it is! I know he haves some new OS tubes, and he is building them! The thing is that I don't want a carbon fork, and that ones are large and would look strange with steel fork!

Scooper

I'm about your height and weight (OK, I'm a few pounds lighter) and my lugged Waterford uses OS tubing and has a steel fork. Do you really think it looks strange?

fietsbob

less sporty race use , more utility ...

A 1.25 "OD 1mm wall 4130 tube for the down tube , a 1.125" .9mm wall for the top and seat tube? a place to start .

Its the usual Touring/ Oversize tube Pick .. Vs 9/8" for down and seat , and 1" for the top tube

Very little reaming and a 26.8 mm seat post should fit.. thicker wall seat tube = use a smaller seat post diameter.


BTW Butting is about slightly thinner tube wall in the center , thicker on the ends thats the reinforcement

what is cheaper is straight gage tube wall thru out . its only a few Tenths of a mm Less / if butted..

hueyhoolihan

that's like your wife asking if her new dress makes her look fat. responses are limited.

Scooper

I opened myself up for that.

unterhausen

I think OS tubing looks fine with a steel fork. Double OS might be a bit funny, but Columbus sells some larger blades.

Janotaking

Really like that bike! Looks right! The tubes that he haves there I think they are double OS. This ones: DedacciaiStrada - Atleta and the price of those without fork is more expensive then the others!
He is asking me for 330euros for all of that tubings I choose! (frame and fork)
I will call him again tomorrow and ask if he haves more tubes over there.
531 Vs SL? What would you choose?
Thanks guys!

Scooper

For larger frames (around 60cm and larger) and/or heavier riders, many builders in the 1980s before OS tubing came into widespread use used Columbus SL with SP down tubes. The thicker walled SP down tube provided a stiffer frame than those built with all SL tubing. I have a 1987 62cm Paramount built with SL and an SP down tube and it's a great ride. It's a little livelier than my similar size 531 Paramount. They're both nice bikes, but personally I prefer Columbus SL/SP.

Dave Kirk 

I really hope this doesn't sound snarky as I don't feel that way................if the builder is a pro, and you trust him to build the bike for you, why don't you tell him what your budget is and let him pick the best tubing for you. If on the other hand you don't feel confident that he will steer you the right way why not pick another guy who you feel more confident with?

I guess my point is that the builder knows (or should know) more about the tubes than you or random folks on the web do. It's his job.

With all due respect -

dave

Andrew R Stewart 

+1 to Dave's take. Andy.

MassiveD

I agree with Dave's take, but it still is a fair question, and there are multiple answers so regardless of what a single builder might say there are going to be more ways of looking at it. And that is what we are here for.

Dave Kirk 

I agree - it is a fair question. I certainly don't want to imply that questions like this should not be asked or that builders should not be questioned.

I can't help but look at this from the perspective of the framebuilder. When someone comes to me and tells me all about themselves and how the bike will be used I will then tell them how I feel we should design the bike and what materials should be used. Often the rider will ask me why I made the choices I have and I'm happy to have the question and give the answer. If at that point the rider says they feel I've picked the wrong tubes and they want to go forward with a different tubeset I would politely decline to build the bike and give them their money back allowing them to find someone else.

I feel the job of the f-builder is to give advice based on experience and then build the best bike they can for the rider so that the rider will be happy with the purchase in both the short and long term. If I feel the tubeset the customer wants is not the best choice this undermines the end result.

I think it boils down to there being at least two business models for f-building - a full custom builder that gives advice and does what he feels is best for the rider and the contract builder that will build whatever the rider asks for out of the materials the rider asks for. Both are viable models but I'm only comfortable with the first model.

dave

Janotaking

Totally agree with that! I'm in a strange situation, because I really want a new frame done for me and I can only spend a little money! The strange thing about this guy is that he raced with Eddy and knows a lot about bikes, for what I see, but he cannot advise me about the tubings, I've sent my body measures today, and I'm almost sure that he will draw a small frame for me, don't know why but it is what I fell. I will not feel great to tell him what geometry I want. I've talked with him today about Eddy and French fit, but he don't know what is it! Don't know what to do...

Scooper, how much is your height? You use 63 or 62 ST frames isn't it? The Competitive cyclist calculator gave me some strange results:

This is photo from him that I've found, what you think about the geometry of that frame? That is a competitive position isn't it?

Thanks a lot guys! We have to get together so I can pay a beer to everyone! Thanks again!

Scooper

I'm 183cm tall, so you're a little taller than I. My legs and arms are a little longer than average (leg length is 90cm). My frame has a 61cm seat tube (center of crank spindle to top of seat lug).

My height and my frame size might be useful as a datapoint, but you really should be evaluated by an experienced framebuilder and/or fitter rather than try to figure out frame geometry and dimensions based on what works for me or anyone else. A custom frame is a substantial investment, so you want to get it right.

MassiveD

Sure, that works for me, but you seem to be looking at it from the builder perspective. The OP is the client.

There are clients who are more than able enough to know what they want, and may be ahead of the builder, no mater who they are. As a client, I was in a bad accident, and my right side is screwed. I know what my right foot needs. I am pretty confident I know better than you or whoever we might name. And maybe the same would be true of an elite rider, my experience is some are knowledgeable, others know very little about the bike. But I don't run into many.

And there are clients, who know nothing and want to rely on the builder.

The problem is that most builder, whatever type they are, see the clients as being of the one type. They rarely stop to find out what the client knows and go directly into expert mode. This is probably a good thing to the extent most clients will be ok with that.

And for the clients, they don't know whether a guy who they might hire is of one type or the other. Even a knowledgeable client may have difficulty sorting the contract guy out from a really seasoned guy who is old school brusque, but almost had the client fitted when he walked through the door.

There are crossovers in each group. Guys who think they are the opposite type from what they really are. Modest artizans who are actually pretty special in all ways, or god's gift types. I had a pal who sold a whole suite of furniture to a client, before he had cut his first piece of wood, he meant well, it all seemed so simple until reality hit. An extreme case.

On top of all that, there are lots of stories of guys who have gone to half a dozen name pros, put themselves in their hands, and the end result was not good, their quest continued on till they hit someone who actually lucked into what they wanted. A few of these guys got so frustrated they took up, or considered becoming builders. One somewhat public case is the guy who runs crazyguy.

So while the ideal situation is that you get a great pro who you can just let do his thing. Some folks want to learn enough to have greater confidence they have found that guy, or the one that is for them. Therefore the questions.

As one wise person once told me, "customer service is what the customer thinks customer service is".

DMC707

The bike looks marvelous! Top shelf all the way. The seat, OTOH, looks odd ( however that is by far the most personal choice on any bike)

Trakhak

This thread reminds me of a story: a friend of mine who wanted a time trial frame built talked about the particulars to a framebuilder a number of times over the course of a couple of months. The framebuilder recommended, along with other details, 700c wheels front and rear. When my friend told him that he'd read on the Web that a 24" front wheel would be better, the framebuilder said, "Do you want me to write it down so you can believe it?"

Dave Kirk 

I hear you.......there are all levels of customer experience just as there are all levels of builder experience. I suppose the trick here is having both sides understand who they are dealing with and what level they may, or may not, have achieved.

I get customers with wide ranging levels of experince. The most common, middle of the bell-curve, is the guy who knows somewhat hat he wants/needs but wants an expert to be sure that they aren't asking for something inappropriate. If that's the middle one end is the guy who knows nothing and at the other the guy who, through real life experience, knows all he needs to know to make good choices when it comes to picking the right design and materials for his new ride. I feel it's my job to qualify the customer and the only way to do this is to spend time, a lot of time, to ask questions and listen to the answers.

Two customer transactions that took place in the past year stick out to me - the first was a guy who is a high level racer, a cyclist for decades and the owner of a vey high end online bike retailer who owns more bikes than I typically build in a year and can ride the crap out of them. I know the above because we spent a huge amount of time getting to know one another. So when I suggested a given seat angle for his new bike and he told me that in his vast experience going 1/2° steeper would work best for him I of course didn't argue. That's one end of the continuum.

At the other end is a guy who wanted me to build him a bike. He was brand new to road riding (long time offroader) and wanted to know what I thought was best for him. We talked and wrote back and forth countless times with questions and answers in both directions. Somewhere along the line it all started coming off the rails and he challenged every suggestion I made to him. Now mind you, I wasn't suggesting he buy something more expensive so I had nothing to gain aside from knowing that the bike I would eventually build for him would be right and that he'd love the ride. I then happened to notice that he was online on two different forums asking what he should have his new frame made with and how the frame should be designed. He was asking well meaning folks who for the most part had little more knowledge than he had and he gave them only a small portion of the info he gave me. He then came to me and demanded to know why I suggested tubing A when the 'experts' online told him tubing B would be better. I did my best to let him know my thinking and in the end he demanded that I used tube B. I declined as it would have been too light for him making a bike that would not ride as it should and may even be unsafe in the long run. I gave him his initial $300 deposit back and thanked him for his time.

Of course as you point out the customer might not know how much the builder knows and if they are a custom builder or a contract builder. I can only say that the customer should do enough research (so easy to do now with cool forums like this) so that they firmly understand what they want and who can provide that to them. The more research done the better.

I too have seen customers who have been to many builders and have had bad results - it's sad and frustrating for both sides when this happens. I think in most cases this is due to a lack of communication between the two or the cyclist not really knowing who they are as a rider. If the rider doesn't know who they are, or worse, lies to themselves about who they are, then there is no way to be sure that the bike they get will make them smile. A good builder can help guide the rider so that they get to know themselves but can do nothing about a rider who says they are super strong and experienced when they are anything but.

As I said above in my previous post I wholly encourage the rider to ask any and all questions as that is the only way to a true understanding. I personally always welcome questions and will spend hours answering them if the rider seems to be listening. If in the end they disagree with my answers I respect that and we both move on. That said i think this happens about 1% of the time. In the vast majority of cases they understand my thought process and logic and want to move ahead with the design I feel would serve them best. Once they understand that my overriding motive is to make them happy in the long run the confidence grows and good things happen.

I have to say that I firmly disagree with your closing statement - "customer service is what the customer thinks customer service is." I understand the sentiment certainly............it's not altogether different than the old sage "the customer is always right." But the customer isn't always right. If the 6'4", 270 lbs customer demands I build him a bike with Ultra-Foco tubes would it be good customer service to give it to him? I think not. I think in this case the best customer service would be for me to take the time to figure out what would best serve him and explain my choices. He then can act in his own best interest. If he chooses to stay with me and have me build him a bike that will ride right and not hurt him that's great. If not I know I did the best I can for him and gave him the best customer service I can give.

Thanks for reading -

Dave

79pmooney

Dave, I went to Dave Levy, TiCycles seven years ago for a ti road bike. We already had a good working relationship because he had built me two very long stems to get stock bikes to fit. He knew I loved them. (180 and 155.) I had a specific geometry in mind and an older race bike I liked the ride of a lot. Had him almost copy the front end geometry. Almost because we kept the front wheel in the same place but extended the top tube a cm so I could use a 12 stem instead of 13. And we raised the BB because dragging pedals gets old. I let him pick the tubes. Loved the ride from the get go.

Four years later I called him up, told him I wanted a ti fix gear and that I had a drawing of it with geometry and the rear dropout specified. He questioned me on the fork rake and I went back and moderated it a little, but nowhere near his suggestion. He built it. It is a very quick steering bike that requires attention, much like the racing bike I loved 35 years ago. And it is one of my all-time favorite rides.

Dave will build anything I ask him to. (He built me two 60 mm setback seatposts on just a phone call.) But he knows I ride and have been a long time. Also that I know what I am asking for. I let him make the choices on the tubes and materials. He knows that area much better than I do (and for the most part, I have not known details about the tubes on the bikes I have had that I liked). And he listens. When I called him initially about the fix gear frame from a coffee shop, I said I would like traditional fastback seat stays. (His trademark is a wishbone that the first bike has. I completely forgot I said that. When he handed me the almost finished frame, I looked at the seatstays in surprise. "But you asked for that." Oh yeah.

Ben

Dave Kirk 

Very cool - a great example of builder and rider knowing each other and themselves..........and this allows trust between the two.

Good stuff.


dave