OwnRules

In order not to further derail this thread, I am opening this one in hopes of getting help choosing between these two bikes:

Quick CX Ultra vs Allegro 3X

Now, some personal background, riding details and reasons for the choice.

I am 53 y.o., stand 6'3" with a 34" inseam and weight 210 lbs. Have been back to cycling for little over three months (lost ten pounds) now after an extended leave of over 15 years. Chose a silver Citizen 2 in a 20.5" frame as my reentry bike and I am happy with it. However I do want to move up to something a bit better along the same lines.

Riding habits: almost all of my riding will be done on pavement, specifically in a local park road that closes from 4:00 to 8:00 and 16:00 to 20:00. The circuit itself is 10km round trip and I am currently riding it about 5 times per week and have gone as far as 40km in roughly 120 minutes. "Normal" thus far is 25/30km in an hour to hour and half -- though my goal is to eventually ride a metric century and put in 40km on a regular basis.

Reasons for active front suspension. Though I've both heard and read (mostly here) conflicting opinions on the matter, with most people falling on the side of "unnecessary" for my road riding, I am pretty much sticking to my guns on this one. Reasons: for me comfort is not just a perk but a necessity due to a pretty bad back condition and when choosing the Citizen I also tried a couple of non-suspension hybrids. Conclusion: I'll gladly give up in speed what I gain in shock-absorbing comfort. Besides, even if I haven't done so yet, living in an island as I do (Santo Domingo, Dom Rep), I want to have the option of taking it with me on some of my beach trips where I'd be riding in rough pavement and/or gravel paths.

Advice: fact is I won't be able to test ride either bike as the Cannondale/Jamis dealer here will only special-order upmarket hybrids. There's a Trek dealer as well, but I've opted out of the 7500 for two reasons: 1-The Cannondale/Jamis dealer has been very accommodating to me thus I feel comfortable in repeating business with them as opposed to going a whole new route, and 2-Vapid as it may seem, I simply don't like the color scheme on the '10 Trek 7500 -- I'd only go that route if they could find me an '09 model and given solid reasons here as to why I should.

So I guess that about covers it. I'd be much obliged if we could keep the conversation on topic and criticism-free as to why one would want to spend that much for a hybrid. Simply put I DON'T want a road bike no matter how many times it gets mentioned that the cost/benefit ratio is a gazillion times better.

Oh yes, I should also add that the Allegro 3X is an '09 model as Jamis hasn't revealed their '10 line-up yet. As with the Trek that could make a difference as well. I am finicky with color-schemes.

Thanks in advance.

OwnRules

For illustration purposes.

Cannondale Quick CX Ultra, about $1,400:



Jamis Allegro 3X, about $1,100:

Wanderer

That Jamis is a good looking bike!

meanwhile

If you need suspension for a bad back then a suspension fork isn't going to help you much - it's at the wrong end of the bike. Don't confuse what you're trying to do with the needs of MTBers who need good forks for control reasons and who handle minor shocks with 2.2'' tyres and big ones by riding out of the saddle and using their legs as suspension.

I'd suggest, in order of rough importance:

1. Buy a bike that can take Schwalbe Big Apple tyres - the suspension effect is excellent - much smoother than a fork - and you'll get the benefit front and rear. See https://www.schwalbetires.com/balloon_bikes.

2. Get a good quality suspension seatpost as well as/instead of a suspension fork. For the obvious reason it protects from shock at the rear as well as the front - and shock from the rear is worse because the axle is closer to your spine. This one is said to be good but cheap: https://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...hy-sl-09-33994

Or even better, you could buy a serious suspension post like a Thudbuster. It will cost, but the combination of a Thudbuster and Big Apples should produce a very smooth ride. Before buying a high end suspension post, do ask for advice on the MTB forum. A Thudbuster post will cost as much as an ok used bike, but it's cheap compared to back pain. Check compatibility with any bike you're interested in - it should be fine, but there might be quirks I haven't heard of.

3. Only then worry about budgeting for a bike with a good fork. Most shock comes to the spine through the ass, via way of impacts on the rear wheel. A fork is the least important part of preventing shock to the spine.

meanwhile

Thudbuster review: Aout $200..? I think. Pricey, but good. Like I keep saying: good suspension takes real engineering, and that costs. PS If this is useful and you want to thank me - please send any info you have on flu cures...

KShep

Sadly, as you know, there is no cure for influenza. Get well soon.

to the Op / I highly recommend the Thudbuster seatpost in lieu of a front suspension package....been using one on the hardtail for years. No complaints.

OwnRules

Useful indeed. You've given me a lot to chew on. Perhaps more than I can bite due to my (obviously) limited technical expertise when it comes to bikes. The seat suspension does make a lot of sense as my current Citizen has a saddle with springs on it and it appears to work fine on the road I ride.

Perhaps what I'll do is ask the bike shop to get me a good saddle/suspension post that works with the bikes I chose and leave the technical/fitting aspects up to them.

BTW, this is what I ride now:



As for your flu, geez, if I knew how to cure it I'd own a bicycle factory and have Playboy bunnies running it. But hey! don't despair, either load-up on Nyquil or your booze of choice -- may not cure it, but you won't be feeling a thing.

Much obliged.

meanwhile

This would be an unjustified amount of faith to show in most stores: 90% will just sell the post that they sell that has the highest margin, but which isn't so expensive that it will put you off the bike. Basically a post that's the same as the $50, but not quite so good, with a brand name to justify a $100 tag. My advice is to ask the MTB forum people, telling them exactly how you plan to use the post. The Cane Creek is usually considered the best afaik - I'd definitely buy a cheaper bike to be able afford one if I was in your cycling shoes. Useful review links:

https://www.mtbr.com/cat/suspension/s...54_150crx.aspx

https://www.mtbr.com/cat/suspension/s...LS_150crx.aspx

My other suggestion, having thought this over while drinking a "Lemsip" - don't buy the bike without trying the post on it. A suspension post can alter the fit of the frame - sometimes you need to drop a size, especially if you are on a borderline between fits. In fact, I'd buy the best post - probably the Thud - and take it with me while I shopped, trying it on a range of bikes with and without suspension forks.


Each to their own life fantasy - however bizarre...

OwnRules

meanwhile, I admire your persistence along with your savvy. The combination of both has convinced me to put the suspension post at the head of my list. As I am an Amazon regular costumer, I thought I'd search there and found a bunch, including the Thudbuster: suspension posts.

Now, since I am really in no rush to get the new bike -- have had the 20.5" frame for only three weeks now -- what I'll do is go to the store and get advice on what fits what. Not much in it for them this way as I'll be buying the suspension post (and saddle) directly from Amazon. But what isn't doable is trying the combo prior to buying it. As I said, the bike would have to be special ordered. So I'll have to listen to them in terms of what alters the frame geometry the least, while being the best bet. Very much doubt I'll want to go smaller though, as that was a major issue with the original frame they had in stock on the Citizen. Mostly I am looking at stand-over height and if I stick with the Jamis, I already have a pretty good idea of fit.

Bit of a gamble but I think between your input and the chosen bikes, I'll end up with a ride that'll last me for quite some time -- which is what I want.

Guess now it is more of a matter of deciding between the two.

Thanks again.

---

As for fantasies, yeah I agree, whatever floats your boat. But come on! You simply can't go wrong with anything involving Playboy bunnies and/or members of the Swedish Olympic Bikini Team.

Just sayin' that's all.

OwnRules

Curious times two. Don't most hard-tails have front suspensions? Further, why forego the front suspension? If I have both, won't I get the smoothest ride possible (along with right tires and pressure of course)?

Wanderer

I also have a bad back, Spondylosis, Spondolethesis, L-5, with 25% displacement.

And, he was wrong about a suspended front end not helping. The worst jolts, for a bad back, are from the front end.

Please try riding with just the front end suspended, before suspending anything on the rear. The suspensions on the rear (even seatposts) are terrible energy sappers. Bigger (wider) tires, will do more for softening the rear, than anything. 40 or larger. The 35s of the Allegro are a step in the right direction, and the 35 will do fine for the front; but, if you can fit a 40 on the rear, it will make a BIG difference. I've mounted both on mine, and the 40 definitely takes away the harshness from the back. Currently I run both - 35 front, 40 rear.

Your legs do a very good job of absorbing shock from the back end - it's the front we have to worry about. A sprung seat will do you more good than a sprung seatpost, if necessary. You can just swap yours over, for no cost.

Believe me, I know of what I speak.

meanwhile

Right now I'll do anything to avoid thinking of my sinuses. And I sympathize with your back problem. Alexander Technique helps with quite a few back problems - don't know if you've tried it?

Glad to help.

Yes - but most men would think of something for them to do other than work in a bicycle factory...

meanwhile

Well, you certainly know what your back is like - but I don't see how how you could say this is true for every bike and every rider. I do ride a bike, and I have had back problems - hence the recommendation of AT - and it wasn't true for me. Chainstays are much sorter than top tubes, so 1" of rear wheel lift raises the seat harder and faster than 1" of front wheel lift. So the same bump causes a bigger jolt at the rear.

There's quite a difference between a $200 Thudbuster and a generic $50 suspension post, just as there is between the suspension fork fitted to many hybrids and the ones fitted to $4000 MTBs or Moulton road bikes. If you ask over on the MTB forums you'll find that the Thud is rated very highly. If you google "thudbuster pedaling efficiency" you'll find that virtually no one who has actually ridden it feels it causes losses. And the sort of people who normally buy Thuds - hardtail off-roaders - will be much pickier and better attuned to their bikes than you probably are.

The Big Apples I suggested are 50mm or 60mm. I'd make my first priority finding a bike that would take them in the OP's situation. 38s are about right for a rider on his weight on gravel who *doesn't* have a bad back. As the Big Apples are notoriously fast, I can't see a reason not to use them if can find a suitable bike that he likes.

Not if you're sitting down, no. Otoh you can use your arms as suspension while riding seated or standing, freeing the body from shock transmitted from the fork via the bars, and the front end bumps can be absorbed MORE easily by the legs than rear enders (see above). No offense - but it sounds like your riding style is very strange. For what you to say to make sense you have to ride standing up and with your arms locked...

OwnRules

Holy cow! A brother in [strike]arms[/strike]...backs? For that's exactly what I was diagnosed with this past November, down to the % displacement. 2nd degree I believe it is (out of four). Stubborn SOB that I am, refused surgery, had 17 cortisone shots in a row and have been rehabing ever since. Seems to me I made the right choice, for surgery success wasn't a given and I feel pretty darned good.

BTW, I had to write the name of the illness down on a business card because for the life of me I couldn't remember the freakin' name -- to this day I have problems saying it. Bad enough we have the damn thing, couldn't they have named it something easier?

Anyway, wish you all the best. I mean it.

You make a lot of sense but by the same token, to be honest, I am getting more confused by the post. I think I am just going to go with my instincts, buy the darn thing as my own early X-mas gift and play around with it till I find what works best for me. As I said in my OP, it is going to be one of those two bikes -- front suspension included of course. That much I know.

Really appreciate your input. Hope this darn spondowhatever will let us ride for many years to come!

---

Nope. First I've heard of it. Will Google it right quick though I am happy with my progress through traditional methods.

Young man (anyone less than my age qualifies as young, so shush), I really wouldn't care what they'd be doing as long as they were at my beck and call. Eye candy goes a long way towards meeting my needs now a days.

meanwhile

If the front suspension was good, yes. Unfortunately most of them aren't, until you pay Big Moolah.

I think at this stage "I'm feeling ill and sleepy" is overwhelming "I'm feeling ill and miserable and need to distract myself" - and suspension forks are probably beyond my ability to explain right now in my reduced state - but go and read the stickies in the MTB forum on bike buying and notice how anti cheap suspension fork they are. And look how complex the linkage on that Thudbuster is, and how much it costs - pretty different to the simple up/down springy things on the two bikes you're looking at.

Honestly: the best form of suspension is a tyre. Two Big Apples on a bike like a Karate Monkey* and you'll be fast, smooth, and bouncy. The tyres will respond faster and more supplely than any suspension system - and then you can add a Thud if you need more. Oh, a good suspension fork would do more if you want to start dirt jumping, but you'd be mad to do so and that fork would cost bike-sized money.

*Comes as a singlespeed if you order a complete bike, but a good LBS can easily switch it to geared. Or you could order a frame and a good store could build it up according to order.

meanwhile

...Well that sounds a little less "eccentric"!

Wanderer

All I can speak to is my own experience (what works for me) with the same diagnosis. Yep, grade II, 25% displacement is easier to understand....

I've lived with my infirmities (both the state and federal government recognize me as legally handicapped) for a long time, and I do know what works best, for me, to help me cope with my problems.

I don't normally just sit on the seat. (with legs dangling) My legs are always on the pedals, doing a good job of helping my back. Really, for problems like mine, it really is the front road shock that doesn't get absorbed as well, and the front suspension really does help here. With physical limitations, you quickly learn what helps you the most. Rear suspension didn't work, nor, did suspended seatposts. But sprung seats (on my road bike - heresy, I know) and front suspension do. I actually ride a Brooks B-17, so I get no assistance from any suspension there. But, my legs are almost always loaded, out of necessity. I haven't used a sprung seat on my Crosstrail, because I don't need it, which I did on the road bike. (could it be that the front suspension makes that much difference - even with seat selection??)

Part of the problem, is that my legs aren't facing forward to help with that shock, because they are under me. Just arms and body don't do as good a job in absorption. The shock coming from the front is the one that is difficult to deal with - it's like running into a wall, if you have my problem.

Also, speaking of tires - my experience with 45s, 40s, 35s, 1 1/4, 1 1/8, 1, has been duly noted by me. I find that anything above 40 on the back (45 is not much different) is a huge difference in ride quality, while 35s begin to feel rather harsh. Whereas the front didn't make that much difference, and the 35 delivers better steering and control.

With your problems - I'd be willing to bet that you ride very similarly to the way I do. Think about it.

It just so happens, that the Hybrid, is one of the tools, that helps me get along with some of the things that I love.

Life, even with physical limitations, is what we make of it!

meanwhile

Well, call me Sherlock Holmes!

I do think that you might have mentioned that ride this way and your advice depends on doing so while giving it to the OP, hm?

And if you changed either to Big Apples or a Thud, then you could probably sit down again.

Any suspension post that doesn't work as well as a sprung seat is a very bad suspension post. The Thud is an excellent one, and often compared favourably with a decent full suspension MTB. Extrapolating the behaviour of one from the other is like comparing Gandhi to Manson, because they're both "religious/philosophical dudes".

Honestly - if your bike can take Big Apples, try them. If not, try a Thud. There's no point buying something as expensive as a Brooks and then not making the most of it.

KShep

I didn't want the extra weight.

OwnRules

Wanderer, I can't seem to get over the fact that we share diagnosis as for whatever reason I've not found anyone in real life that does. Most people -- myself included prior to this -- talk about "herniated/slipped disks" as common knowledge and yet when they ask me about my condition I am at a loss as to how to make the distinction though I have been made quite aware of same by the neurosurgeons that treat me. In short, they've made me wish for a herniated disk instead.

That said, I am likely one of the least qualified people in this forum to fall into either side of the sort of 'debate' you and meanwhile are having. Seems to me I agree with both of your arguments, which unfortunately, is not helping much in my decision between the two bikes I am going to pick from.

Finally, I am quite a ways from saying that "money is no concern" but by the same token I can spend the price of those two bikes and a bit more without it having any significant impact on my overall financial well-being. So once again I will make the best educated guess that I can and take it from there.

Haven't really read any specific comments about them anyway. For instance, I am curious about the front suspension difference between the two. One is on the front tube itself -- the Quick CX -- and the other has the more conventional suspension on both legs.

---

meanwhile, I realize you're doing your best advice-wise, but I do not wish to build a bike nor order one that has no representative here. You know, "keep it simple, stupid"? That's moi.

So I am going the way of my OP. Should you have any suggestions/preferences between those two I'd love to read them.

Feel better & dream of hot babes.

---

Love your bike but yet again, weight to speed ratios are not high on my agenda.

---

Thanks for the replies, all.

Wanderer

You misconstrued my statement. Because of my condition, which also includes a very bad knee, I can't depend on it to hold me up. Therefore, almost all of my riding is sitting down, on my Brooks B-17.

I would hazard a guess, that I get much more sit time, than most riders. I love the B-17.

I'm not trying to argue with you - just trying to explain the limitations and adjustments that must be made to ride comfortably, even if under unusual circumstances. Our condition happens to be included in "special circumstances," and I'm trying to help someone who happens to be in the same boat.

Hopefully, I can spare him some grief, by profitting from my mistakes and learning experiences.

Our condition is that under normal circumstances, vertabrae are stacked on top of each other, in a very balanced order, held together by "rubber bands" called discs. Nerve bundles are round where they exit those vertabrae. Our vertabra one, not all or both, is slid forward on top of the one underneath it, approximately 25%, causing the rear to squat down on top of the nerve bundles where they exit a vertabrea. The discs are not herniated(slipped), just extremely abused like the flat side of a tire.This squishes the bundles into a flat oval shape, which sometimes causes lots of unusual problems, like burning up when you are frozen, hurting when nothing is wrong, dead feelings, tingling, etc, etc, etc. At times, the pain is "exquisite." Other times non-existent. It all depends which nerves are being squished, and how bad. If bad enuf, no feelings would be present at all, maybe affecting ability to control whatever, or the opposite, causing unrelenting, excruciating pain.

I understand what he is going thru, and am just trying to help him - no one else.

I'm sure your advice is well grounded, and probably good, under most circumstances. It just doesn't sound good from my perspective.

Believe me when I tell you that I have tried a lot of things in the last 30 years, to alleviate/accomodate my problem. My LBS did provide me a Thud to try on my road bike, and it just didn't work for me. The nature of my problem is to try to also control the movement of the vertabrae in question, not just control the shock. It's a unique problem which legs happen to do very well, probably because they communicate with my body, and have enough mass of their own to help compensate.

Honestly, I've got no fight in my posts - just helpful info.

Accept my apology if you think I was denigrating your advice, which was not my intent. My sole intent was trying to help someone who is experiencing the same problem that I happen to have lots of knowledge about.

I fully understand that my only other option is spinal fusion, which may, or may not, resolve the issue. My back surgeon advises wait and see. In this case, "fixed" might not be as good as "broken." LOL

OwnRules

Well, I took bit and pieces of the advice given me in this thread and put in a request to my dealer for the following bike and components:

1-Jamis Allegro 3X 21.5" as linked in the OP. Quotes for the '09 and '10 model to be released at Interbike next week requested.

Decided the premium on the Quick CX was better spent on the following components mentioned and/or suggested in this thread:

2-Ergon GC3 grips Large.

3-Specialized Sonoma Gel Saddle 175mm in black.

4-2009 thudbuster ST

Just wanted to thank the posters who gave me the input/ideas for putting this machine together. I have a good feeling that it'll it turn out quite satisfactory for my current and future needs.

Will update as warranted -- this will take some time to put together but I am in no rush.

Thanks again.

Wanderer

Please keep us informed.

agc1976

I don't understand Cannondale's marketing strategy with adding the Quick CX line, isn't that what the Bad Boy line is all about?

OwnRules

Glad you like as it's the model being ordered -- provided my Jamis dealer can find the right 21.5" frame. She sent me the Jamis '10 catalog and I simply don't like the new candy red/pearl white paint scheme on it. Parts/cpmponents are about the same thus I am going for the '09 though discounts on the older model are close to nothing ATM. Not a matter of money either as the new one is within $100.00 of the '09 -- don't like it. Period.

Anyway, buying the rest of the parts/components myself and the bike (if found ready to ship in right frame-size) should be ordered on Saturday with a 50% deposit.

The rest of the parts I am ordering myself from Amazon as it is more cost expedient fpr me, not to mention much wider choice. Have everything pretty much picked, and the extras run me about $300.00.

Will list my choices just as soon as my dealer finds the bike and I put a 50% deposit down. The most significant change made had to do with the Thudbuster -- just think it is an eyesore, thus to start with I am going with a well-reviewed cheaper post: the Kalloy Guizzo suspension seatpost combined with a Selle Royal Respiro Gel Moderate.

Other than that, I combined my own set of grips/bar-ends as they didn't have the Ergon GC3 in large. Think the chosen combo will work about as well.

All in all, looks like the upgrade project will run about &1400 to $1600 + plus local taxes and S&H and possibly some duty fees. Don't have the exact figures yet but it looks like it'll all fit well within my budget -- including some extras not priorly mentioned.

Should thing go well time-wise, I am looking to have my Allegro 3X in four to five weeks.

Will report back with any pertinent updates. And if someone has some/any additional ideas (restricted to the bike model itself, please advice) and/or questions, please do not hesitate to ask/flame moi.