FMB42

MY wife and I feel the same way. My 2000 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton standard cab long bed 2x truck averages 23-24 mpg (1/3 freeway, 2/3 city), while my wife's 2012 Subaru Forester hits 33-34 mpg on the freeway @ 65mph (not sure about the city mpg, but it's pretty high). And my motorcycle gets 45-50 mpg. Btw, we live in an area few little or no steep hills which, of course, helps mpg just a bit). Fortunately, these vehicles allow us to deal with any terrain and/or road conditions we'll experience. They'll also carry just about anything we'll ever haul.

I'm retired, so I drive very few miles, and my wife's commute is about 13 miles one-way. Meanwhile, I myself haven't owned a vehicle that gets under 23 city mpg since 1979 (including my '79 mini 4x4 truck that I drove for 17 years or so). This, and the fact have been working and/or paying income taxes since age 15, puts us at ease with our use of fuel.

350htrr

WOW, That is how most people think who drive a vehicle (including me until last year, when my wife bought a Prius) older vehicles are soooooo out of date that today they need to be scrapped, it's understood by the younger generation ( and even that may not be enough) for people who kept up with how things "really are" IMO it has gotten to the point that a COMPLEAT change is required to combat what is happening in the present world, (1/2 measures are just not good enough)...

wahoonc

Yup and the cost of Prius will pay for gas and upkeep on the truck for the rest of it's useful life... there is eggs and there is chickens and I will damned if I know which came first

Aaron

FMB42

And when will you call your wife's Prius "older"? In 5 years? Or maybe 10? And will you be OK if others make this decision for you?

350htrr

Or, Maybe the cost of the Prius is covered by the moneys spent on gas and repairs on the old beater... For me the $ I spend per month running the old beater covers the payment and gas, thus I end up with a new car without paying extra. Just like the chickens and eggs, it can work both ways. Add up your costs and see if you can do the same.

Whenever the cost benefit comes close, I would rather spend my $ on the new/better vehicle. JMO

dynodonn 

I own a small compact sedan and I usually drive it on my days off from work, to haul heavier loads quicker, and over longer distances than I wish to do with my bicycle. I like to keep vehicles a long as possible, since I do my own repairs, the repair costs are a fraction of what shop rates are. I just rebuilt the engine in my son's car for the price of a few months of new car payments, and the transmission repair for our SUV was cheaper than some evening dinners for two.

no1mad 

Another question is how to handle the logistics of getting your vehicle serviced? To those who have a vehicle solely for recreational or utilitarian purposes, I'd imagine that this would not be too disruptive.

However, some households define 'Car Lite' as one person relies on the car and the other doesn't. Add to that a long commute, no public transit infrastructure and no car pool option- then what? Take a day off (with or without pay)? Rent a car?

Nightshade

...........

gerv 

Basically what's needed is a Plan B. If you can't travel by car, you have arranged some other means. You have a mutual agreement with a relative or neighbor to help each other when needed. You investigate public transit and discover it's not as not-existent as you thought.

Or maybe -- since this is a cycling forum -- everyone in the family rides a bike that day? Wouldn't that be revolutionary?

FMB42

We rented or (in one case) borrowed a car during these times. The great think about renting is that certain car rental places will deliver and pickup the vehicle at your doorstep.

DogBoy

I think I barely qualify for car-lite if at all. My coworkers think I'm extreme however. My wife does not ride except for recreation and she drives our 2006 minivan. Our vacations for the most part are by car. This all adds up to about 20k miles a year.

I ride most days to work and the gym. I have a '14 ford escape AWD (purchased when someone totaled my 2010 fiesta with a left hook ) that I use when I don't have time to ride. This is usually to accomdate kid activities and schedules. No matter what, I can't get from soccer field A to soccer field B 7 miles away with a 7 year old and a 4 year old in 15 minutes through town on my bike. We just make it in the car. I put about 8k miles a year on the escape.

What makes me extreme to my coworkers is that I still ride my bike to work when it rains or snows. They say "I could never do that." To me, I'm barely making a dent, and I ride because I enjoy it and to help keep my more fit. Going from where I am to car free would be a huge step. I talked with my wife about doing it when the fiesta was murdered, but she was not willing to deal with the disparate schedules of the kids with only one car. Not only that, she wanted a bigger vehicle with AWD since we couldn't all fit in the fiesta due to the size of the car seats. She also wanted something to tow our small sailboat. The escape is the smallest vehicle that does all those things.

As a side note, I use my bike to drop off and pick up my car from regular service appointments. They look at me like I'm an alien when they ask if I need a shuttle and I say "No, I brought my bike." I was told that it was dangerous to ride my bike and I said "Everything fun is dangerous!" The service place is in the middle of suburbia with two major 4-lane aterials and no shoulder or bike lanes and 45 mph speed limits. I go about 1 block on that road before I can find a side street. The general public is just so far from the mindest of bikes as transportation, I really don't see it changing much in the foreseeable future.

B. Carfree

You radical.

lightning60

Our family owns two vehicles:

2005 Chrysler Town & Country Minivan
1960 Ford F-100 pickup

The minivan is my wife's daily driver. With three kids in tow (ages 6-2) she is hesitant to ride across town for shopping and school activities. We homeschool our kids, which means there isn't somewhere to go everyday, but we do spend a fair number of days each week traveling to field trips and the weekly homeschool co-op.

The pickup is my Plan B vehicle when I am not bike commuting. Normally this is very infrequent, but for the last six months I have been dealing with knee pain (diagnosed as patellar femoral tracking syndrome) that has resulted in many more miles than typical. The pickup is very handy to have around for home projects and I have lots of sentimental attachment to it.



I have been toying with the idea of swapping the pickup for an SUV to give us more access to the Utah backcountry and allow me to carry the entire family. Another option would be to swap both vehicles for a single SUV. When we bought the minivan I was hoping to get better fuel economy than offered by a 4WD/AWD SUV, but have been underwhelmed by the fuel economy of the minivan (18-22). We try to do as many neighborhood trips as possible via bike, (church - 2 mi, grocery store - 3 blocks, parks, restaurants, etc), which is more feasible when the entire family is going or just me and one of the kids.

Roody

Another idea would be to try hiking, bike touring, and/or mountain biking, especially if you want to reduce car usage. A third idea would be to swap both vehicles for one vehicle, which could be an SUV if that's what works best for your family.

FMB42

Yep, my wife's '02 Dodge mini van (3.3L V6) got 23 mpg at best (her previous '94 Chrys. mini van (3.3L V6) got 26-27 highway. She was so unhappy with her '02 min van that she traded it in on a brand new 2012 Subaru Forester, which is rated at ~ 30 HW mpg (yet, it gets closer to 34).

350htrr

When I tried out my "hypermileing" skills... in the Prius I got 86MPG.

EDIT; Oh I parked the car yesterday and rode my bike 29.8 KMs... The snow is now gone...

wphamilton

We sometimes overlook the fact that the energy cost of manufacturing a car (and by extension, the carbon footprint) is as much as that arising from the use of the car over its entire life. So given a choice between buying new, the guy keeping his old gas guzzler going is greener than the guy buying a new or late model more efficient vehicle.

350htrr

That is certainly true for the first year or two... BUT, if the new vehicle gets 70MPG and the old vehicle gets 15MPG it doesn't stay the same, IMO using 80% less fuel adds up real fast in savings and carbon footprint size. The real answer is of course ride a bike...

wphamilton

I agree on your real answer!

For the other part, even if the new car has zero emissions and runs on air, it still has an energy cost and carbon footprint to make it. If that's as much as the total lifetime emissions of the old car (typical estimate), then you're still more green by driving the old one than if you scrap it and buy new. If you can keep it going long enough. The longer you can put off that initial carbon footprint of new manufacture, the more you're saving the environment.

350htrr

I did some calculations ballpark #s using my 16 years old truck and new Prius...

6 Tons CO2e footprint to produce Prius...
3 Tons per year CO2e footprint driving Prius 1 year...
13Tons per year CO2 footprint driving Truck 1 year...
0.1? Tons riding bike 1 year...

wphamilton

Estimates for the manufacturing energy cost vary between the extremes. The old hummer vs prius (with the hummer winning) has been debunked.

this one https://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/re...ss_otr2020.pdf (starting at page 1-18) estimates a range from 13% for the baseline vehicle to 53% for electric cars, for embodied energy consumption (manufacturing) compared to lifetime fuel. Assuming recycled materials; use of raw materials almost doubles it.

But either way, you're saving the energy cost of the new car and greenhouse emissions if you don't buy one right off. Look at this part of a chart from the MIT calculation of Total Lifetime emissions including manufacture and batteries.

vehicle Total GHG Emitted gC/kmBaseline gasoline ICE: 47
Advanced gasoline ICE: 42
Advanced diesel ICE: 37
Hybrid gasoline ICE: 30
Battery electric: 33



I'm not saying this is the end of the story, but there's some point on the curve than minimizes emissions and it isn't necessarily either "change now" or "hold out forever". I'm pretty confident though that the guy keeping his clunker moving has nothing to be ashamed about, environmentally speaking.

enigmaT120

My intention is to have my '58 Chevy 4WD half ton pickup as my only 4 wheeled vehicle, once I finish restoring it.... 17 mpg.

350htrr

Well I agree with you as far as someone buying a new truck to replace the old truck, or a new SUV to replace the old SUV, or a new car to replace the old car... Not a step ahead to lower the carbon footprint, but, in my case, replacing the old truck with a Prius IS lowering my carbon footprint. IMO, because there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the type of vehicle and using 80%+ less gas to do the same thing is not pissing into the wind...

Roody

True, but unless you scrapped the old truck, you are just adding one more vehicle to the planet. And even scrapping a vehicle adds to the carbon footprint. The only way to cause a large reduction in your carbon footprint is to responsibly dispose of the old vehicle and replace it with...nothing.

wphamilton

Better gas mileage is a start and I wouldn't take that away from him. 80% less gas though, I dunno. I thought that the Prius got around 50mpg so the truck would be down around 10 ...

I'd be kind of proud with 17mpg on that vehicle.