Siu Blue Wind

That being said, I moved this to consumer feedback from road.

fstshrk

Exactly my sentiments. If you are a weight weenie, I don't think a Ti frame is going to do it for you.

FBinNY 

I don't know if there's history here, but FWIW I read his "weight less, ride more" to refer to the bike, not the rider. As in don't worry about weight so much and get out and ride.

As for the OP's complaint(s), I spent my early years in bicycle retail as the go-to customer complaint guy. I learned early on that right or wrong, some sales aren't worth the stakes or effort, and if/when a customer headed off the deep end, we'd refund his dough and send him away, because if we didn't we'd have to continue to deal with him and it simply wasn't worth it.

cyclebycle13

Yeah, thanks for that Richard. There's always work, my kids, fitting it in w/ my wife's work schedule. I think 7000 k per year is pretty good.

cyclebycle13

If an offer is made and a buyer accepts and then the sales mgr turns around and says, "Sorry, I know we offered you a headset for $50, but I'm only going to sell you one for $160" you wouldn't be pissed?

Tapered headtube- WTH does that have to do with what's going on here. I have a bike w/ a tapered headtube. I wanted to use an enve 1.0 fork instead of a 2.0 (which is all they make the enve in. I've used it before and for someone my weight, it's more than stiff enough.

As for the weightweenie thing, if you don't approve, it really has nothing to do with this. I was going into buying the frame knowing it would build to a heavier bike. I had decided on what would be acceptable, and looking around, others had helix frames in medium and large that were coming in between 1250 and 1350g, which was acceptable to me. Incidentally at those weights there were no stiffness issues that they reported to me.

When Don started going back on the original headset offer, I got pissed. When he would not tell me exactly what I needed so I could get it myself, that also bothered me. It took him realizing how aggravated I was before he followed through on his salesperson's offer (which is piss poor customer service).

The weight was the final straw, that kind of killed it. Of course, and someone posted this, once a customer is that aggravated there's not much you can do. I mentioned I would look at the frame and I didn't even want to start building it up anymore. It was a total disappointment. What's missing is the only reason they refunded my money was I filed a dispute.

If what Don did is "perfectly acceptable" according to your standards, then you must be perfectly happy w/ people crapping on you. If there were issues beyond control, that's another story, but an offer had been made and he tried to go back on it. Also, if they told me it was going to weigh over 3.5 lbs, I never would have bought it.

WhyFi

He didn't turn around on it. He said that he wasn't privy to the negotiation and, as such, could only authorize the standard deal ***at that time***. This is SOP procedure for working with the client of another salesperson because, frankly, it's also SOP for buyers to embellish the deal that they were offered. It was you that got hissy and impatient.

dalava

Becuase Ti frames are now being marketed as artisanal type of thing, customers are "encouraged" to feel the personal touch of the framemaker, and as such, the heavier than advertised frame weight and the responses from the sale manager didn't really live up to that expectation.

bt

Nachoman

+1

Munk69

If I was Lynksey, I would have given you a refund and sent you on your way. Not worth the effort.. Specially when they can sell that bike to another person that would acutally appreciate it.

MrCharlie

OP--

I'm with you here. I have had similar dealings with Lynskey, Don in particular. I bought a Cooper frame through my local dealer three years ago. Taking their claims of great customer service, etc., at face value (why not?), I would occasionally use the "chat" feature on their website to ask a question or two about the frame or about some other product of theirs I was considering. While they were always eager to answer questions of the latter sort, they would always brush off any frame questions and tell me to got talk to the guy I bought the bike from, like because I hadn't bought direct from them--which is so clearly where they are moving their business model--they couldn't be bothered. I found this a bit distasteful, but didn't sweat it at all.

Then my one season old Cooper--the Ti frame I purchased because Ti frames don't break--developed a crack in the chainstay. To their credit, they did fix it, and, from what I remember, they did so in a relatively timely manner. But what I remember about the experience was that the few times I used their "chat" feature to check on the status of the repair (mind you, this probably happened twice, weeks into the process) they would inevitably tell me to go call Tom, the dealer I originally purchased from. So, instead of them quickly checking, I had to make a separate phone call to a guy who would then have to call them and then call me back. This pissed me off. Things break, I get it, but they certainly weren't being very understanding of the fact that this was a big disappointment for me.

And then I ordered a seatpost from them. This was my second seatpost from them, on top of having ordered a stem as well sometime prior. So, I at this point I have spent around seven hundred direct with them as opposed to through a dealer, which, again, seems to be the ticket into their good graces. When I ordered the thing, I paid ten dollars for expedited shipping. The next day, I saw on their website that it had shipped out via USPS priority, a two-three day service with a tracking number. Three days passed and I didn't see the post, so I contacted Don and asked for the tracking number. He asked me what shipping level I selected, I told him, and he told me that that service doesn't provide a tracking number--again, it most certainly does--and that my post would be there that day. I knew he was feeding me bs at this point, so I just waited. When the post finally arrived, another three days later or so, I saw on the label that they had shipped the thing not priority, not first class, but something even lower, which on the USPS website was referred to as a budget conscious service for when time didn't matter.

At this point I was pissed. But, I decided that it could have been shipped out incorrectly by mistake, so I got back on the chat thing and simply asked for my ten dollars back that I had paid over and above the free shipping for an expedited service. Don wasn't having any of this. I still can't believe it to this day, but his whole schtick was "Jim, buddy, it's ten dollars, who cares, why are you getting so worked up..." in these exact words. At one point he said "I can't believe we're arguing like this over ten dollars." That was it. I said, "you're absolutely right, I should absolutely not have to argue with you over money that I spent for a service I simply didn't receive." I told him I was sending the post back for a full refund and that I would never buy anything else from them again. He called me ten minutes later. I didn't answer and didn't even listen to the voice mail for another hour because I was so pissed. It was the same thing "Jim, buddy, this seems like such a little thing to get worked up over" and now "I'll give you the ten dollars, I just don't get it." Absolutely unbelievable.

I've sold everything I own with a Lynskey label on it. Took a loss on the frame, but man it felt good to purge my house of their garbage.

The bottom line, for me anyway, is this: Lynskey--and Don in particular, whom I'm sure they hired to perform just this--put out this certain type of "were just simple folk like you, one of the small guys, so we have great customer service" routine. The problem is that, ultimately, this amounts to nothing more than "we have great customer service because we say so..." And, if you have a problem with our great customer service that we claim to have then "Jim, buddy, dude, what's the big deal friend, its just ten bucks....don't be so crazy...."

No thanks.

la rosa 

I ordered a stem mos ago from them & it so happen they were
out of stock. So when it came in Don gave me an extra one.
I can't complain.

Jarrett2

The tone of the original post just sounds a lot like a certain percentage of the posters on this forum. Coming off prickish, rude and self-entitled. I just always assumed when I encounter that here that it was on purpose, but based on the OP asking for to be verified on the forum, I guess it is possible some folks don't know when they are acting in this manner. If I were in the builder's shoes I would have ended the transaction as quickly as possible as well. There's no reason to spend time on that type of customer, imo.

In general, I'm finding that cycling seems to have a weird dichotomy to its enthusiasts. It seems in their ranks, there are extremely nice people that will go out of their way to help others when they don't have to and then there appears to also be an inordinate amount of ****** as well. I try to associate with the former and avoid the latter when possible.

WhyFi

I can guarantee you that this wasn't because "they couldn't be bothered." It's because they understand that sales of this nature are very consultative - you can ask 4 people the same thing and get 4 different answers, and none of those answers are necessarily wrong. This is when you get in to the "too many cooks in the kitchen" territory and it gets to be very, very difficult for everyone involved - buyer, retailer, manufacturer. Having been in the position of the retailer, I can tell you that the last thing you want is to have the manufacturer contradict you, good intentions or not, especially without the benefit of sitting in on the entire sales process.

MrCharlie

Nah, you really just need to experience the particular form of run-around Lynskey dishes out to get it. It really is maddening.

To replace the Lynskey I got a Moots. The shop I ordered it from sold me a 55 but it was a 56 that arrived. That dude was willing to do anything to make that right, even let me ride the 56 for a month or two until the 55 was ready. I ended up saying, hey, the reach is only different by 5 mm, take back this 10cm Moots stem I bought with the frame and have them make me a 9.5mm and well call it even. This is just to say that I really am a reasonable guy, and am totally willing to be understanding when mistakes are made, etc. The problem is that over at Lynskey they have this way of trying to say that any mistakes they make are not really a problem. Once the routine starts, you just get more and more angry and that starts to color all interactions moving forward.

For some reason Lynskey carries a very good reputation around this forum. I could be wrong, but I don't think that this is based on a lot of actual interaction with the company. I don't think that all the people who are always strangely eager to defend Lynskey own Lynskeys, in other words. My hunch is that many people, many more than are actual Ti frame owners, have bought the mythology that Lynskey has built up around its origin: We had Lightspeed, but that was to big for our down-home way of doing things, so we took a little break and got back to being just plain folk building Ti and helping people out. And, maybe for a little while this way accurate. But, look what they are doing now: These people are operating a car lot for bicycles. First came the financing, then the "trade in" thing. What other framebuilder is trying to hock frames from other companies? The whole thing is bizarre. When I talked to Don, I was always reminded very clearly of my experiences buying a used car or two as a student. Just kind of shady.

I will say this too, at risk of everything else I've said coming off as just Lynskey hate. In my opinion, and I am not an engineer, just someone who reads way too much about bicycles, I think the shaped tube thing, and I don't just mean the way over-shapped Helix, but the diamonds, etc., found on any of their bikes, are just a gimmick that play right into the car salemesman-type rhetoric. I could be way off on this, I will readily admit this as a possibility. But ultimately I think the shaping is just part of the big sell happening down in Tennessee.

MrCharlie

I don't agree with you, but even if I gave you this one, their dismissal of my questions about the warranty work were absolutely out of line. My dealer had squat to do with the jigging, welding, and refinishing happening, presumably, somewhere in the same building as whomever I happened to be talking with on their website. I've talked to a few dealers who are feeling a bit of pressure, or, better, lack of support or something, since Lynskey have really started pushing their direct sales. There is a clear tone happening there wherein, if you haven't bought a frame from them directly, then you are not one of their customers.

cyclebycle13

Perhaps I should have included this part of the emails, this was me:

Well, it looks as if I don't have the option of finding that headset anywhere else, so I'll just have to go along with it. (this is because he wouldn't tell me exactly what I needed to get) Usually when one employee makes an offer and another says that's no good some kind of explanation goes along with it. While you might be in a tough situation by yourself, the complete 180 in that situation was kind of a shock, especially since I was told to buy the frameset and deal with the headset after, thinking I was spending $110 less than I was.

It's not good business and whether or not it was a mistake, I'm having a hard time understanding. Honestly, if not for my current time frame, I'd send the bike back and go with a different builder. What transpired is just wrong and unfortunately, I have a really bad taste for lynskey right now.

Have a nice weekend.

His response:The hs bearingset is cane creek’s 40 series IS42/52 with the FSA crown reducer for 1 1/8” steerer. Scroll to the bottom of the email thread and see your sales order just turned in. Sorry that you feel that way, I try to micro manage Michael as best I can, but ultimately my recommendation would have been to go with Cane Creek’s 110 series for internal bearings and straight fork. But I didn’t have the luxury of speaking with you, and I build the loft page the way I did for the specific reasons I mentioned earlier.
I do hope that you enjoy the bike, it likely will ride like none other you’ve ever owned.

He went on to explain the difference between the two headsets- the 110 is stainless steel and has a 110 year warranty. The 40 does not. I don't need a headset that lasts 110 years, just because it's the one he likes. I guess they're used to people who don't wrench their own bikes and clearly he knows what's best for me.

You'll also notice the out he had a chance to take in my email. As for "SOP", if Don sees all the emails he would have seen that offer go back and forth a few times. Nothing was embellished. In 17 years of building and riding bicycles I've never had an experience like this.

I already have a Neilpryde Bura SL, I've received nothing but the best customer service from that company. Either my expectations are too high for lynskey or I've been spoiled all these years.

rjones28 

Why didn't you just source the headset yourself? As someone who wrenches his own bikes, and likes to save money, I would have sourced the headset separately for much less than Lynskey was offering.

WhyFi

Frankly, this just reinforces that you're a pain in the ass to work with. IMO, of course.

cyclebycle13

...and you opinion leads me to conclude you enjoy being a doormat. IMO, of course.

Stucky

What a way to run a business! Sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. If they had half a brain (as opposed to no brains), they should have their salesmen/CS people log any deals that they offer, so that they are a matter of record, and so that the deal can still be made regardless of the salesperson's circumstances.

Don's attitude was atrocious! The frame weighing that much is ridiculous! -especially for the price!

I'd buy a Motobecane ti frame just for spite- I hear they're just as good (or in this case, actually much better) at about half the price. Screw Lynskey! When are people going to learn, that now thanks to the interwebz, shabby treatment of a customer can resound around the world- and one incident like this, which has been well-documented by an OP who seems very reasonable, can forever affect the reputation of their company in the eyes of thousands of people- and hinder many future sales?!

cyclebycle13

I was just starting to do that. It appeared I could have purchased the top and bottom separately in the 110 series for about $75-80 when I got the email that he was honoring the original offer.

Bottom line, I got my money back, lost a little on shipping, but I'll no longer have their tin can to deal with.

WhyFi

Waiting one business day while someone is out sick is being a doormat? Okay.

bt

ugliest frame ever.

Carbon Unit

The look of the Helix never worked for me. If I decide to get a Ti bike I will either go cheap with a Habinero or go for quality and get a Moots.