bobflyer

Hi all.. check this out.. posted this froum in mtbr and got some heck of redneck answeres(1/30 was of any content).. hope the people here are better..

Turner Horst Vs. Kona faux bar



from the pictures.. they only difference i can tell from the 2 different links are that the piviot near the dropouts are in a different place.. so i come to infer on this.. what differnece does it make where the piviots are placed(near the dropouts).. i don't really know why some many people hate the fact that turner is changing the suspension.. but please correct me if i am wrong..

some people are also scared that if they are using the new link.. their suspension will freeze if they use the brakes.. i think this picture should settle it.. but do correct me if i am wrong.. these are just observations..
[img=https://img426.imageshack.us/img426/2307/newfluxrear2iz.th.jpg]



Could anyone give me some insight on this change and tell me the real difference between HL and Faux bar?

C Law

According to Turner , nothing will change, except a few mm here or there

Which makes me wonder why he paid to use the horst link for all these years........... maybe the new stable platform rear shocks make the faux bar as good as the Horst link as far as pedalling?


Isn't the new turner faux bar the same as what kona has been using for years?

I am sure if it was that bad( brake jack, etc.) you would here about it from people who ride konas.

cryptid01

The Horst link (pivot on the chainstay) yields the most vertical axle path of any major suspension design to date. This limits chain growth during suspension movement and effectively isolates the suspension from braking forces (aka brake jack).

The pivot on the seatstay yields an axle path that describes an arc with a radius equal to the chainstay length...essentially, it has the same characteristics of any single pivot design. The chain tension caused by pedaling will produce more bobbing, although a shock with platform damping will help significantly. Brake jack is present, but not as noticiable on shorter travel frames. Take a look at the longer travel single pivots (e.g. Kona Stab, Foes Mono) and you will see they use a floating caliper mount to mitigate the effects of brake jack.

bobflyer

thanks guys.. so turner is also leaving from the ICT technology? so now it acts like a single piviot bike but with a more complicated way of linking the shock to the wheel.. so can you tell me now weather the turner is still the best bike(according to a previous thread i started) to go with or i shall get a titus motolite?

santiago

A key element in the Turner design is that they use bushings and not bearings at their pivot points. They claim that this is superior to bearings.


With respect to the suspension deign, I have been temped by a Turner Flux and feel a little thrown off by this design change as you must as well. All along the claim was that the Turner bikes had the best suspension design and now we have a situation where:
a) They were wrong and this new suspension design is better.
OR
b) They are moving to an inferiour design (slightly inferior||much inferior) only to avoid paying license fees.

Don't know. Buying a Turner at the price it is at I would expect to be buying top notch equipment with no compromises. This change confuses me.

bobflyer

hey santiago, i am just as bumbed out by the design.. i was saving just enough to get the truner flux by febuary next and i was looking forward to buying the bike.. but i have been thinking about it.. since truner uses ICT from ellsowrth.. its most probable that turner and ellsworth would have a contract.. so the terms of the contract could be that turner had to use the design for X amount of years.. and during that course of the years.. turner could have been testing other bike designs thats might be better the the ICT horst link, but he just can't release the bikes due to the contract.. now that the contract is over.. he is releasing the new faux bar design.. or it could be for some other reason.. but i would rather wait for some of the reviews to come in first before making my final decision..


i would believe its a), otherwise, why would such a brand that has achieved leaps and bounds with the horst link suddenly change its design..

jalexei

Looking at the TNT info on Turner's site, it seems even they are basically saying this new system is the tiniest bit inferior (but they reassure that "you won't even feel it") which basically screams that it's b: Don't want to/can't pay the licensing fee, which is a bummer because it's not like they'll pass any savings on to you or I (and I was dreaming of a 5-spot next year).

santiago

That's what I was thinking as well. However, at my skill level I would likely "not even feel it" but it is still a bummer that such a piece of art has a compromise built into it.

bobflyer

ita real bummer.. i was dreaming about a flux next year.. but i now see myself getting a titus or a specialized..

Raiyn

Excellent post!
Superior to their bottom line perhaps.

crgowo

I believe Turner had to pay specialized for the horst link and had to start paying Ellsworth for the ICT license which is the way the angle placement or the rocker and the seatstay if I remember correctly. Anyhow Im sure Turner didnt like having to send money to his competitor not to mention they stated to the press that Turner bikes are licensing their ICT design because of its its superiority to others.
At least this is what Ive heard.

telenick

Turner's TNT

pinkrobe

My friend bought a Flux while we were in Tahoe last week, and I was thinking about tracking one down for my wife for next season. However, based on this thread the Ellsworth Truth is starting to look more appealing. Would y'all take a Truth over an '06 Flux?

santiago

I have read/heard that Ellsworth customer service has had problems and has been improving.

However, Dave Turner will bend over backwards to help you/support his product if there are any issues.

Given the above two statements, I personally am leaning towards a Flux. What this suspension design change has done is forced me to sit back and wait to see what the concensus is on the new design. If anything, this has caused me to save money as i was intending to buy the frame by the end of next season. I may push off another 6 months.

pinkrobe

Since this is my wife's first FS, I doubt that she would notice a massive difference between a Fuel/Spider/Truth/Blur/Flux/FSR/Racer-X other than the colour and weight. I'm also not worried about durability, as she is not big and will not be hucking. That said, she is extremely concerned about weight and climbing ability, and she refuses to get a Blur because "everyone else has one". The 2006 FSR line is surprisingly heavy, and she isn't interested in an Epic. So, between the Fuel carbon, Intense Spider, Truth, Flux and Titus Racer-X - any clear winners or losers?

iamlucky13

Turner's not alone in their decision to stop pumping money into Specialized for licensing. Jamis and Intense have also stopped using the Horst link design. Frankly, I'm disappointed because the Horst link design strikes a really good balance of plushness, bob-reduction, and control of brake jack. I guess with new SPV shocks, this isn't as big of a deal, but the Intense Horst link bikes were pretty sweet. I'm still tempted for a second whenever I see an Uzzi or a Tracer on Ebay.

Dang it! Why'd you have to tell me about this. That cuts the drool factor of the Turner 5-spot by at least 5 percent.

telenick

That's primarily why I bought a Titus. FSR is superior, IMO.

telenick

Based on your comments, I would choose the bike with the shortest chain stay for superior climbing ability.
Weight can be negotiated with parts pick.

I like the Titus Racer-X best in your list. But I'm biased.

kingkonger

Still ride my 05 Turner weekly year round and race it a few times a year. It has the orig. HORST susp., and I still love it.

As far as the bushings vs. bearings - ask any of my Norther CA buddies who ride a Santa Cruz, it's a no brainer. They have their bearings replaced on a yearly basis b/c of the wet conditions and harsh riding out here. It also seems that the rear bearings go more frequently the older they get. My Flux is still bomber, the rear triangle is still super tight. Just remember to grease the bearing every once in awhile.

pinkrobe

Arise o zombie thread! Walk the interwebs once more!!!

As it happens, I got my wife the Titus Racer-X. She is most pleased. Unfortunately, she has started to huck. If she breaks the Titus, I'm getting her a Transition or something.

dminor 

^^ Syren time!

kmart

I started reading the thread and was surprised by the shear length of the posts and their actual usefulness. Then I noticed the date....