mlvernal

You are completely of the mark. Things are never black and white. There are always issues of proportionality that you have to take into account - thats what I'm arguing.

What I'm saying with regards to MR is that his punishment doesn't fit his crime. There are rules and sanctions already there. Yes. Steps were taken against MR. Yes - and these steps were fair and in accordance with the rules. BUT there is NO rule that says, that he could or should be disqualified or in any other way thrown out prematurely on grounds of suspicion and heresay alone.

And yet that's what happened.

Without proof you cannot administer punishment. What you CAN do is punish him accordingly to what you know for fact. That he missed the tests.

So why am I defending someone with all theses suspiciouns clinging to him? Because I fear that what happened at the Tour 2007 will happen again. And then the sport will suffer. Now it's Contador they're looking into - already sneering at him without any hard proof whatsoever. It's just circumstancial. How clean must these riders be before the amateur sporting press and an uptight public opinion can relax and relish in their own moral rightousness and besserwisse?

-mlv

julian

How much cleaner? Apparently a lot cleaner than they are.

Rasmussen lied and lied and lied and lied. No actual proof of doping but people have been sent to jail on circumstantial evidence too.

I think he is a big jerk. He lied to an ex friend about shoes and drugs and tried to get him to do something illegal such as bringing blood doping products on a plane.

Where do you get off feeling sorry for this POS?

The dopers are giving cycling a bad name and not the other way around. Would you let your kid go into pro cycling? I wouldn't.

Take off the fan blinders. The guy is too anal to miss controls without having a reason to.

dahoss2002

I guess Ras has a legitimate gripe when you consider the timing of his dismissal, he probably should have been dismissed or excluded from the Tour before it started.

biffstephens

MR is simple a liar...we are not sure why he lied but we know he lied.....

By the way lying is against the rules...SO he broke the rules.....

mlvernal

Erm, yeah, maybe. The point is that he already was punished. He recieved adminstrative punishment according to regulations. What happened went to far. The part about lying to his team is not resolved yet - MR maintains that he didn't. So again, things aren't black and white.

Regarding being accused with only circumstancial evidence: Arguing that people go to jail on circumstancial evidence only - and that this should justify that MR should be thrown out of the tour - is just plain silly. Judging people on circumstancial evidence only is NOT the way to go. Sure it happens, but you should ALWAYS try and break the case with hard facts. Right?

And yes OF COURSE I would let my kid get into pro cycling. Jeez. This is what I'm talking about. An irrational, moralistic public opinion fueled with self-righteousness is far more dangerous than a lying, doped yellow jersey. Next you'll be arguing that riders with a criminal history has no place in the tour.

-mlv

2thamaxx

The facts are simple.
RM was fired because he broke the rules of the Rabobank, not other than that.
He lied and therefore brought the Rabobank in a position that action was needed to keep their reliability.
If the press and all the others were not pushing so hard he would have never been fired.

If the RM wasn't redraw from the TDF the Rabobank would not get a invitation by the ASO for next year.
If RM wasn't in the yellow jersey he probably wouldn’t been fired at all but maybe just redraw from the tdf.

There's a Dutch saying about this: "High trees catch the most wind" and that's just what happened.

Hambone

how would you say that in Dutch? I know tree is boom and wind is wind.

1weasel

Hoge bomen vangen veel wind.

Hambone

dank je

maalea

Ride in the drops.


That should be a metaphor for life.

meb

The extent of any revelation about Ras lying to his team is an allegation from a team manager that Ras lied-an allegation Ras denies. This team manager resigned which certainly puts the manager's disputed allegations under question.

ASO has no standing to be concerned with whether Ras lied to his team-thats an internal matter within the Rabobank team. ASO's concern would be whether Ras committed fraud by misleading the testers about his whereabouts creating a missed test during the window .

If the Ras would not have been fired but for the yellow jersey as you allege-that certainly suggests interference from outside the team which might suggest the team manager may not be on the up and up about the lying to the team. Rabobank should be concerned with actual lying independent of whether Ras is in the yellow.

If Rabobank fired Ras because of pressure from ASO about being invited to the Tour next year (although as a Pro Tour team they are supposed to have an automatic invite), that also suggests interference from outside the team.

meb

He missed one test within 45 days of the Tour on June 28. If Ras was using steroids or EPO in his training regimen, since the steroids and EPO would pass from his system while still retaining the benefit to his muscles and hemocrit.

The March missed test would have been less of a concern for the Tour, since a doping targetting the Tour would take place in the month of June which roughly coincides the 45 day window you cite. If Ras was doping in March, he would have risked random detection for lesser competitive gain in the Tour.

Mayo was tested on a rest day after he was significantly dropped. He probably figured it was a good day to take some EPO since there was less testing on the rest day and hope the EPO passed his system by the mountain stage and any testing due his finishing. He appears to have been under suspicion previously, so may have been targetted for testing that day under speculation of that very activity.

Vino tested positive for a test that had only been previously performed by the Athens and Lasaunne labs, not LNDD, so the speculation is he thought he was not being tested for homologous transfusions.

The others were primarily out of competition tests revealed during or on the eve of the Tour.