Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-22-12, 05:36 PM   #176
achoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by colombo357 View Post
Again, the eyewitness testimony that has not yet been revealed to the public poses a tricky situation.

There are two sides to this.

Lance Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel, and Michele Ferrari

vs.

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis (I know... laughable) but also Frankie and Betsy Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters, Christian Vandevelde, George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Kristin Armstrong, Sheryl Crow, etc.

A bunch of these guys were in fact doping only because "everyone else was doing it". Unlike Lance, they weren't controlling the drugs nor working directly with the UCI to fix the results. Big difference, and they shouldn't be thrown under the bus.
What's "tricky" about it?

Secret evidence is acceptable?

Utterly ignoring the hard-and-fast statute of limitations from Article 17 is OK?

Applying rules enacted after-the-fact in contradiction of Article 25 is proper?

WADA's rules are so important USADA can break them to enforce them? That's kangaroo court.
achoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-12, 08:07 PM   #177
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by achoo View Post
What's "tricky" about it?

Secret evidence is acceptable?

Utterly ignoring the hard-and-fast statute of limitations from Article 17 is OK?

Applying rules enacted after-the-fact in contradiction of Article 25 is proper?

WADA's rules are so important USADA can break them to enforce them? That's kangaroo court.
Actually it's not a real court at all. USADA can do whatever they want. UCI can also do whatever they want (to an extent), as they clearly have in the past.

What part of this do you not understand?

Armstrong tried to get the US court system to intervene. He failed.

Last edited by colombo357; 09-22-12 at 08:14 PM.
colombo357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-12, 05:06 PM   #178
achoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by colombo357 View Post
Actually it's not a real court at all. USADA can do whatever they want. UCI can also do whatever they want (to an extent), as they clearly have in the past.

What part of this do you not understand?

Armstrong tried to get the US court system to intervene. He failed.
OK, it's a witch hunt.

Big surprise.
achoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-12, 06:39 PM   #179
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by achoo View Post
OK, it's a witch hunt.

Big surprise.
And George Bush planned 9/11.

And the moon landing was faked.

Correction: the moon landing was real, but it wasn't Neil Armstrong who first set foot on the moon; it was Lance Armstrong.

Tell your mom to drive you to Barnes & Noble so that you can read Tyler Hamilton's book. Or ride your bike there. You know what a bike is, right?
colombo357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-12, 01:22 PM   #180
sloppy robot
like, really sloppy
 
sloppy robot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: calipornia
Bikes:
Posts: 2,285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First rule of Lance Discussing: Anyone who uses the terms "kangaroo court" and/or "witch hunt" can be skipped without reading.
sloppy robot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-12, 07:20 PM   #181
mprelaw
Senior Member
 
mprelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sloppy robot View Post
First rule of Lance Discussing: Anyone who uses the terms "kangaroo court" and/or "witch hunt" can be skipped without reading.
You can toss "hearsay" into that mix, too.
mprelaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-12, 11:27 AM   #182
atallen223
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay here are my two cents. After passing every test they gave him and surviving a DOJ investigation he was hit with an investigation from a department that already had it's mind made up and wanted to prove it's relevance in the world. I'm sorry but the only reason USADA went after Armstrong was to make a name for themselves. They were totally shameless. If he doped I honestly don't care because Ullrich, Landis, Zabel, Vinokourov, Pantani all doped. Hell even Merckx was freaking caught. While all of them doped none of them inspired people or worked with charity like Lance did.
atallen223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-12, 09:12 PM   #183
jbenkert111
Coffee Stud
 
jbenkert111's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Annapolis, MD
Bikes: Fuji ALOHA TT, Scott Speedster 35, Nashbar Road Bike, Marin MTB, Dolomite Fat Bike
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well said, put me in your camp.
jbenkert111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-12, 10:14 PM   #184
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by atallen223 View Post
Okay here are my two cents. After passing every test they gave him and surviving a DOJ investigation he was hit with an investigation from a department that already had it's mind made up and wanted to prove it's relevance in the world. I'm sorry but the only reason USADA went after Armstrong was to make a name for themselves. They were totally shameless. If he doped I honestly don't care because Ullrich, Landis, Zabel, Vinokourov, Pantani all doped. Hell even Merckx was freaking caught. While all of them doped none of them inspired people or worked with charity like Lance did.
Read Tyler Hamilton's book and you'll realize how silly you sound. You can pretend that his book is full of lies, but you'd be ignoring the fact the he testified under oath in front of a grand jury, mentioning the same details he wrote in the book, and those details were likely corroborated by the testimonies of over a dozen other people.

Why single out Lance if everyone doped? Because what he did from 1999 to 2005 went far beyond his own personal doping. His cancer survival story is what got him money and sympathy, a powerful combination, and he used his power to essentially control doping in the peleton... everyone else had to scramble to compete with him and subsequently got caught, while his positive tests in 99 and 01 were brushed under the rug.

Jeff Novitzky didn't drop the investigation. Someone higher up pulled the plug with no explanation. USADA was handed all of the evidence and simply couldn't ignore it. The reason why USADA is going after Armstrong is likely because they can't go after the UCI directly. Dozens of people's testimonies corroborate the fact the UCI is corrupt, and serious changes need to happen with the UCI to clean up the sport. Going after Armstrong implicates the UCI.

Armstrong made a smart move by declining arbitration, but we surely haven't seen the end of it.
colombo357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-12, 07:26 AM   #185
Pug
High Modulus
 
Pug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, NJ
Bikes: Cervelo R3, Ridley X-Night
Posts: 659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
MP4OX - new "blood booster"

I wonder how long until this stuff makes it to the pro peleton. Sounds better than EPO.
Pug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-12, 03:32 PM   #186
ultraman6970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I bet they tried it years ago already. A brazilian that raced for the lotto back in the 90s died because they got him in a regime of experimental drugs. He never got caught but he got a nasty cancer and died. In a matter of fact had to retire quite young too.
ultraman6970 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-12, 12:30 AM   #187
Smirob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lancaster, CA
Bikes: 1988 Schwinn Letour, 1989 Schwinn Tempo, 1998 Schwinn Circuit, 1996 Trek 7000ZX MTB, 2009 Motobecane Cafe Sprint, 2008 Cannondale CAAD 9, 2005 Fuji Team SL
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why is it so hard for people to believe Lance is a cheat? OK, let me see if I understand this right, damn near everyone was cheating but Lance wasn't, but Lance kicked their asses seven years in a row. It just doesn't make sense. The simple answer is he cheated too.
Smirob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-12, 12:52 AM   #188
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirob View Post
Why is it so hard for people to believe Lance is a cheat? OK, let me see if I understand this right, damn near everyone was cheating but Lance wasn't, but Lance kicked their asses seven years in a row. It just doesn't make sense. The simple answer is he cheated too.
Yes, thank you, but we're way beyond that at this point...
colombo357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-12, 03:18 AM   #189
Snowman219
VICTORY IS MINE!
 
Snowman219's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ogden, UT
Bikes:
Posts: 239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lance Armstrong: Could I get a bottle of water. - - Hey, aren't you Peter La Fleur?
Peter La Fleur: Lance Armstrong!
Lance Armstrong: Yeah, that's me. But I'm a big fan of yours.
Peter La Fleur: Really?
Lance Armstrong: Yeah, I've been watching the dodgeball tournament on the Ocho. ESPN 8. I just can't get enough of it. But, good luck in the tournament. I'm really pulling for you against those jerks from Globo Gym. I think you better hurry up or you're gonna be late.
Peter La Fleur: Uh, actually I decided to quit... Lance.
Lance Armstrong: Quit? You know, once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit. So what are you dying from that's keeping you from the finals?
Peter La Fleur: Right now it feels a little bit like... shame.
Lance Armstrong: Well, I guess if a person never quit when the going got tough, they wouldn't have anything to regret for the rest of their life. But good luck to you Peter. I'm sure this decision won't haunt you forever.

Eat it Lance.
Snowman219 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 11:20 AM   #190
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 20,037
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirob View Post
Why is it so hard for people to believe Lance is a cheat? OK, let me see if I understand this right, damn near everyone was cheating but Lance wasn't, but Lance kicked their asses seven years in a row. It just doesn't make sense. The simple answer is he cheated too.
It's simple ... Lance was super holy most awesomest cyclist bike racer dude ever in the whole world ...... That's why he was able to beat the dopers.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 11:39 AM   #191
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,623
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Some poor reasoning here.

"They are singling out Lance" This ignores all the other investigations and suspensions of top level riders from Lance's era, some of which have concluded quite recently

"It was a level playing field" No, it wasn't. Some riders could not afford the 6 figure payments to "doctors" for the best programs. There's a fairly long list of people who got sick or died trying to keep up on a smaller budget.

And blood manipulation has a natural (and rule based) limiter on how high you can go. This favors people with lower hematocrit who might be able to get a 10% boost vs. riders who might have naturally high hematocrit and only be able to boost 2%.

"They all were doping" No, they weren't. Do some reading and you'll find that a fair number of racers rode clean, stopped doping, or quit the sport rather than subject themselves to PED's. Hincapie's move to BMC, and the interesting fact that he never raced with Lance again by his own statement references moving away from doping.

"This is old news" Lance's last TDF was only a couple of years ago. To a trained eye it was obvious that when the federal investigation was made public, his performance fell off dramatically. Apparently that was also noted in his blood tests.

"Doping doesn't win grand tours" Physiologically, blood doping is much more effective in a 3 week Tour because, unlike a one day race, all the performance components (red blood cells, testosterone, Etc) decline severely over a three week tour without resorting to PED's or blood manipulation. This is well documented as is the ability to restore those levels by PED's or blood doping.
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 12:07 PM   #192
Commodus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Burnaby, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 4,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by atallen223 View Post
Okay here are my two cents. After passing every test they gave him and surviving a DOJ investigation he was hit with an investigation from a department that already had it's mind made up and wanted to prove it's relevance in the world. I'm sorry but the only reason USADA went after Armstrong was to make a name for themselves. They were totally shameless. If he doped I honestly don't care because Ullrich, Landis, Zabel, Vinokourov, Pantani all doped. Hell even Merckx was freaking caught. While all of them doped none of them inspired people or worked with charity like Lance did.
It's interesting to see the mental gymnastics that people try to force upon themselves to make this nonsense stick. Make a name for themselves? Shameless?
Commodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 04:16 PM   #193
baj32161
Behind EVERYone!!!
 
baj32161's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Burlington ON, Canada
Bikes: '11 Cannondale Synapsese 5 105
Posts: 5,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
Lance was, is, and will probably always be a dick. That's why so many are reveling at the latest news.
Though they say they think it good for cycling, what they really mean: Lance's problems are good for
them. I don't care for the guy; I believe he did dope. But this is in no way good for pro cycling.
True, but the changes that may result can be a good thing.
__________________
A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence.

― Bruce Lee

Last edited by baj32161; 10-10-12 at 05:50 PM.
baj32161 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 04:47 PM   #194
Allez3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Catawampus
Bikes: Sirrus, Allez
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
It's interesting to see the mental gymnastics that people try to force upon themselves to make this nonsense stick. Make a name for themselves? Shameless?
Not saying Lance is innocent, but have you read the 200 pages? Talk about mental gymnastics.
Allez3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 04:50 PM   #195
Allez3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Catawampus
Bikes: Sirrus, Allez
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug View Post
I wonder how long until this stuff makes it to the pro peleton. Sounds better than EPO.
Recovery (EPO) and replacement (MP40X) are two different things.
Allez3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 06:41 PM   #196
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,623
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug View Post
I wonder how long until this stuff makes it to the pro peleton. Sounds better than EPO.
It probably already has.
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 06:50 PM   #197
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,623
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez3 View Post
Recovery (EPO) and replacement (MP40X) are two different things.
"Basically it's a drug which takes up oxygen and delivers it..."

EPO creates more red blood cells that then deliver (more) oxygen.

For the purposes of a PED, the effect, if this actually works, would be the same.

And it would circumvent all the current EPO markers. You'd have to think it would be easily detectable, once WADA moves on it, lists it, and develops a test. In the mean time people who were using it (again, if it worked), would be riding at the front of the peleton destroying everybody just like in the old Postal days.
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 07:12 PM   #198
wabbit
Sprockette
 
wabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 5,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it's sad that someone who was a big hero to so many built his career on a lie. It's sad because he did do a lot to enhance cycling in North America. There are more teams, more people are cycling, the sport has become bigger, it's even on tv more. I think that should continue in SPITE of Lance. He's a jerk and abused people's trust, and frankly, I always suspected him from the getgo. It was kind of the same with poor Pantani, although his doping wasn't on such a huge scale and he probably didn't do it as much as Lance. Pantani was so hugely popular with the fans that, dope or not, he did a lot to make the giro even more popular, him and Cipollini. Fans showed up in droves just to see them because they just LOVED them, especially after Pantani won the tour. That has not changed, because the Giro's popularity with fans has soared since the 90s and all the scandals haven't changed that, for the fans and for people who love cycling in italy. Italian fans seem to be able to forgive anything anyways, when it comes to their sports heroes. While they recognize that Pantani was a deeply flawed and troubled guy, dope or not he was an incredibly talented rider and one of the best climbers of all time. It may be different with Lance, who just refuses to even acknowledge that anyone was affected at all.
__________________
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. That's great...if you want to attract vermin.
wabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 08:05 PM   #199
Clarabelle
Senior Member
 
Clarabelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sequim, Washington on the Olympic Peninsula
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Fuji touring, Trex hybrid, Bike Friday Tandem Traveler
Posts: 438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
We'll never know if LA was doping or not, or to what extent, or to what effect, but we do know something. The process is unacceptably flawed. To have all the testing done immediately after races, and throughout the careers, and have those tests come out negative, then way down the road say there was doping is patently ridiculous (I'm not saying there wasn't).

If failing tests proves doping, then passing them should be acceptable proof of not doping, otherwise why bother with the tests in the first place. I don't care what happens to LA since whatever happens people will either believe he won those races or they won't and what USADA does won't change anything. But we should take a long hard look at USADA, and how they do business, and if they cannot get their act together, consider disbanding it and replacing it with a more clearly defined process.
I agree. To me, it was a lot like getting a ticket for running a red light just because they know that you have probably run a light in the past. If he tested clean, I don't see how they can "convict" on that. As far as the others claiming he did, what kind of pressure was exerted to get them to accuse him? The whole thing is a mess.
Clarabelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-12, 08:20 PM   #200
bgilchrist
Senior Member
 
bgilchrist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Bikes: 2012 RM Prestige CR 10, 2008 Scott S60FB, 2006 Jamis Dakar XLT, 1995 Kona AA
Posts: 129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The USADA report is a joke. Unfortunately, most who stand by it won't read it in it's entirety and won't take the 5 minutes to read enough to realize there are some serious, serious credibility issues.

Lance quit his fight on what? August 23rd? Because USADA had all these riders who testified to him doping. Read the dates on the affidavits. Most are September/October this year. Yet USADA had this evidence before August 23rd?

Most damning is Michael Barry's affidavit. It's dated October 8th. The 200 page report was released October 10th at noon. Yet quotes and references from Barry's affidavit are fully integrated into the report. That's impossible.

Did Lance dope? I don't know. But I do know that USADA doesn't know either and for some reason is out to throw innuendo and can't support their position or paper with their backup documents.
bgilchrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57 AM.