Garfield Cat

Here's the You Tube of Tim Brummer climbing "The Wall" at the Solvang Century. He seems to be passing many riders but could this be a "set up"?? The video is too perfect. The other riders have been going for many miles and Tim seems to have fresh legs.

Lightning R-84 recumbent climbing 'The Wall' - YouTube

StephenH

If all the riders were going as fast as they could the whole time, you wouldn't think it would happen like that- all the people he's passing on the uphill would have been far behind him already.
However, it's not uncommon to go ride with other people and then be able to pick it up at some point in the ride, either. You just ride with a bunch of your buddies and chit chat, then you come to that hill and say, "Hey, turn that camera on and watch me go up this hill!" So no reason to think it's a set-up.

Steamer

Not to change the subject, but field testing has put the CdA of the F-40 in the neighborhood of 0.16 to 0.17 m^2.

Whereas a Quest velomobile is in the neighborhood of about 0.09 m^2. And some small folks on pretty well optimized, unfaired lowracers have been as low as about 0.16 m^2.

The vehicle weights of these machines are all pretty different, as are the Crr potentials (especially on the velo).

Just throwing this stuff out there..... Draw your own conclusions.

delcrossv

Based on my P-38 experience, the vid is pretty accurate. It's a good climber and Tim's a strong cyclist. It most likely went down as Stephen H said.

BlazingPedals

When I'm on tour, I'm usually the last to leave. If I run out of people to pass, I'm know I'm almost at the end. Hills have a way of concentrating everyone, so the video shows exactly what I tend to see. I'm catching them because they have a 2-hour head start. Without the hill, the other riders would be all strung out and it wouldn't make such a good video.

Garfield Cat

Ok, the P-38 versus the R-84, metal alloys versus composite and metal alloys, a weight thing but at a steep price. But better performance with light weight for climbing.

Most diamond frames these days have composite but not composite with metal alloys. Is it because recumbents can't be made 100% composite?

delcrossv

Yes they can be all composite, but it's the designer's choice as to where the advantages of the the material are best applied. Mesh seat frames are one place where it probably doesn't make much sense to tool up for composites.

Steamer

They can. There are all carbon recumbents out there. You need to keep in mind the very small quantities in which recumbents are made. High volume of DF bike sales allows for manufacturing sophistication that small quantities cannot support. We're talking hand made one by one carbon recumbent production for the most part, here.

delcrossv

^^^ That too. When you call Lightning with a question or to order something, you usually wind up talking to the owner/ designer- Tim Brummer. Totally unlike the usual DF purchasing experience.

Garfield Cat

Two things: wheelbase and position of the bars.

It would be like the diamond frames, the shorter the wheelbase and front wheel trail, the more agile. It would be like a touring bike and a racing bike comparison. The bar position, is it a matter of the type of riding, or do low position bars mean more relaxed over a long ride?

Another thing: does anybody have experience with Rotor Rings on recumbents?

Steamer

Generally speaking, when considering such things, you have to unlearn what you have previously learned.

Sure, short wheelbase and low trail does generally mean more agile, but steering tiller distances, and height of center of gravity and the distance the COG is behind the steering axis play a role too. With recumbents, there are a larger number of variables at work, so generalizations are semi-useless.

Steering setups and their ergonomics are a personal thing. Sorta like picking a DF bike saddle.

delcrossv

So true. My longer wheelbase, more slack raked M5 is a lot more of a handful than my P-38. Go figure.

Jeff Wills

I rode the Cal Poly Velox Solium streamliner at Battle Mountain (10 years ago!). It had a very steep 76 degree head angle and "reversed" fork. Despite that and the fact that I'm eight inches taller than the rider it was built for, I was able to ride it around without issues after one false start. Then the "real" rider went out a rode it at 60mph. Its handling is what I'll be aiming for once I get around to finishing my streamliner.

Garfield Cat

Does that mean Tim Brummer will do some customizing like bar positioning? I am trying to figure out the similarities with a custom diamond frame maker. With custom frame makers, they take your measurements, discuss the type of riding you do, look at what you have been riding, etc.

Garfield Cat

Where do most recumbent owners store their bikes? Certainly not hanging on the wall of the living room!! With diamond frame bikes, it usually goes in the garage hung from the ceiling or on the wall and away from the ground floor to conserve on floor space. Wife will call it "clutter".

delcrossv

He has some tweaks that he'll do to help make the bike fit you, but it's not like the frames are made-to measure as the adjustability is built in.

delcrossv

Pretty much the same as DF's- here , there and everywhere.

Jeff Wills

When I first moved in with my wife, we put the recumbents and the uprights on a 4-bike stand in the main room of the apartment. During Christmas we'd hang lights from them.

Now, my old Lightning is hanging from a hook in the garage, alongside my mountain bike. The garage floor is occupied by two Gold Rushes belonging to me and my wife, my streamliner project, my Schwinn Superior restoration project, and various garden tools. Cars? That's what the driveway is for!

lowracer1

not rotor rings , but I do have lots of experience with rotor cranks. I have a rotor rck original version on an optima baron. I have a rs3 on a catrike speed and a rs4x on a nocom and my carbon quest. I don't like running standard cranks anymore so will have to figure out how to keep my rotors running for a long time.

lowracer1

while we are discussing f-40's, should probably show you another platform that is fully streetable and faster than an f-40 by a good margin.

Steamer

Would depend on road quality and the amount of climbing.

lowracer1

ok, lets get real here and just suppose that one wouldn't be foolish enough to take a quest or an f-40 to Colorado and ride 20 miles uphill. I'd probably choose a different weapon like a carbent or cruzbike. I'm taking this from a perspective on a particular race course of a 100 miles of distance where I've been able to race against a friend numerous times. When both racing nocoms we finished within 2 seconds of each other. He won by 2 seconds on same bikes. His best time on f-40 on the course was a 3:50. Best on nocoms were 4:05 Best in the quest were a 3:36 and 3:45. He also agrees that his quest was faster than the f-40 on most terrain that supports the attributes of the platforms. This year we were going to find out if his Milan sl was going to best the quests best times but he had a technical and locked up the drivetrain and had a DNF. I've ridden with him many times and are pretty close in FTP wattage. He didn't race the year I got the 3:36 but did make the comment that the f-40 wouldn't be able to touch that time. There are 4 pretty good steep climbs that puts us both down to around 6mph. You really left out the biggest problem for the f-40. WIND. Throw in a 15 to 30mph wind and the f-40 gets tromped on. I did the 100mile TT at calvins on a 25 to 35mph windy day and still pulled out a course record of 4:05 which beat the previous record set by a 2 wheel streamliner by over 20 minutes. In almost all conditions, the velomobile platform is a better faster streetable one. Even in the steepest hill, I don't have to worry about slow speed wobble or tipping over either. So, when you say "amount of climbing" what % grade are we talking about? Maybe due to weight, the f-40 might have a slong climb advantage when doing a 2% to 6% climb while the quest might have an advantage from 6% on up due to not having to low speed balance? I don't even know what you mean by road quality. smooth vs chipseal? That is dependent on tire choice.

Steamer

Calvins is very flat and has decent roads. Like I said, it would depend on those things. My perspective doesn't resemble anything like that.

Edited to add: by climbing, I'm talking low speed. Less than 8-9 mph for sure. This is both in the form of repeated steeps and non-let'er-rip downhills, and long climbs (20 minutes on up). Weight to power is all that really matters much on those.

By road quality, it mean potholes. From my prior experience on a trike, three tracks blows in those conditions. Although not all roads are an issue. It depends on the particular route.

The F-40 has greater appeal in that it is:

1 - significantly lighter than a velo, and not all that much heavier than my current bent that I use for rando (metaphrastic).
2- significantly more aero than my current bent.
3- significantly less expensive than a velo (about half the cost; about 3 to 4K less.. on the used market...)
4 - something that I can actually put in my car and transport to the start of a brevet or permanent. I have no idea how to transport a velo without buying a new car. My current car can't tow a trailer or anything like that.

delcrossv

Willie seems to do all right on (moderately) hilly randos with his Quest. But IIRC he uses the Carbent when it's 20k' of climbing in 200k.

Steamer

FWIW, Willie's worst 200K routes have about 12 to 13K of climbing IIRC. I am pretty sure anything with 20K is going to be a 300 or 400K (or even a 600K).

Most of the permanents and brevets around here have climbing rates somewhere between 50 and 95 feet per mile (6,000 to 12,000 feet per 200K).