delcrossv

Mark is the one-stop-shop for short cranks. He's done them for most of our bikes. Per Steamer's post, what does a P-38 mean to you? What do you want to use the bike for?


The three I ride regularly serve different purposes:

One's a commuter
One's a touring bike
One's a fast TT/ racebike

Of the 3, IMO the P-38 is probably the best "all arounder". But you really have to try before you buy.

BlazingPedals

All of my bents are the perfect all-rounders. There's not a one of them that hasn't done numerous multi-day tours.

delcrossv

Do a lot of in city commuting on that NoCom, do you?

Steamer

Or unsupported rando or touring, on the occasional dirt road, or in the rain? In the mountains or on the plains? Able to draft with uprights and not freak them out by riding near their ankles?

BlazingPedals

I don't do any city commuting, period. Ditto for unsupported touring - what's that??? But I've used all of them in all *road* terrain, from the mountains of New York, Tennessee, and North Carolina, to the flatlands of 'the thumb' and even the occasional gravel road. The NoCom is actually pretty good for light touring because I can pack a fair amount of stuff inside the frame. Makes the bike weight 40 pounds, but it works.

Steamer

Some people's needs are more 'all-aroundish' than others. That was the point being made.

delcrossv

Exactly.

Garfield Cat

This is much like the first new bike purchase for a newbie. Some newbies think they will get a bike and that will be the first and last one. Then the story goes that once I ride this new recumbent, then I will know what kid of riding I will really want to do and what kind of set up, etc.

But hopefully, much of this trial and error is done with the diamond frame bike. For most every day riding, I would imagine there might be less than a dozen ride routes that I do.

I currently ride a Cervelo RS which is good enough for me to do the riding that I do. I have ridden the Cervelo S3 and its aero and compliant but the RS is adequate because I really don't race. The RS is good enough for me to keep up in a group ride.

What the P-38 would do for me on the flat asphalt or concrete is to give me some aero and maybe comfort, more than the Cervelo RS. That would be a nice complement, I think.

delcrossv

If you want to do pacelines with uprights you might be better served with a highracer. E.g a metaphysics or the like- they won't like your pulls as much but you'll be right in the draft of an upright.

If you're just doing informal group rides, the P-38 works fine- but you'll either be in front or in the back of any paceline that develops depending on your group. I did pull someone on an upright (drops) on the P-38 and he said it gave a good draft.

You'll really notice a difference on long rides with the P-38 - more of the "hey, nothing hurts!" variety.

Garfield Cat

How about two things on the P-38:

ZZipper front fairing; Rotor rings;

lowracer1

actually, most cyclists in pacelines prefer not to have any recumbent mixed in with them. They don't even like highracers. It makes them nervous to have a spinning crank level with their rear wheel. If the p-38 gave a good draft, then it obviously isn't a very efficient recumbent either.

delcrossv

Some clubs allow them, other's get the willies. I'll agree , compared to M5's or nocoms P-38's aren't especially aerodynamic due to the upright seat; but it's not like I use it for racing. It does make a good long distance bike and an excellent commuter.

BlazingPedals

Point accepted. The other way of looking at it is, everyone seems to think their bike is the perfect one. And it is. At least until their needs change...

delcrossv

I'd try it "bare" first.

delcrossv

Yep. Hence "N+1"

BlazingPedals

I think my old-model V-Rex truly is one of the preeminent all-rounders. It can take 2" tires and do dirt/gravel pot holes, it can take panniers, it handles as well at 2mph as it does at 52 mph, it can u-turn in the width of a single parking space (tire track only.) The frame has been bulletproof. The P-38 can do a lot of those things too, but Tim Brummer is on record saying that it's a racing machine and it shouldn't be expected to be, you know, durable.

Steamer

I have no doubts about the P-38's durability given what my friend Dan has put his through and as many years and miles he's spent on that bike. Dan is not light, is very very strong, and rides in western PA, and lives in Pittsburgh (where the roads are as rough and potholed as I have seen pretty much anywhere, and that includes the bad areas of Cleveland). I should also note that he has broken a couple other recumbents. But not his P-38. For any reasonable use and avoiding the worst of winter road salt, the P-38 will hold up just fine.

delcrossv

+1. Those who know me know I'm no lightweight and I've had no reliability issues with the P-38. It's pretty bulletproof.

BlazingPedals

Maybe Tim had to eat his words after he put them to print, and the newer ones are built better. I know he used to do a constant business in fixing cracked frames. They'd break just behind the headset. One time, I asked Wally if his had ever broken. He said "no, why?" I walked over to his bike and inspected it, then showed him the crack. He got that fixed at the end of the season!

I came VERY close to buying that bike when he sold it this spring. It was very reasonably-priced, but the wife wouldn't free up the funds. Something about paying off the pole barn first.

Steamer

Well, that is a very good point, and an issue I had forgotten about. As I understand it, the newer ones have a reinforcing gusset where the two top tubes meet the head tube. That had to have been in response to breakages there. Not exactly sure when the gusset was added. It's not real new, I don't think. Dan's bike is about 6 years old and has the gusset.

Steamer

Ok, I have to eat some crow, here. I had a nagging, vague thought that Dan had actually broken his P-38 and so I emailed him to confirm. As it turns out, he did break it - at the boom, specifically.

Dan said:

JRA, huh? A very likely story...

I told you he was strong.

delcrossv

After '97 IIRC. Mine has one and it still has the 17" Moulton front wheel.

Jeff Wills

Mine did that after five years of riding. I'm fairly large (6-foot-4, 210 pounds back then) and I was riding it hard through hills several times a week. At first it was repaired with a gusset behind the headtube. It broke again. It then asked for a new frame. That came with a gusset and an extra cross-tube.

My original P-38 frame was repaired by Pat Franz at TerraCycle with some additional reinforcement. I still have it, but it's a hanger queen nowadays.

home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/lightning/index.htm

Joel Dickman

Hi Garfield Cat,

1) How does the Lightning F40 compare to your Cervelo road bike? I have no experience on the Cervelo. I do have a few miles on other upright road bikes. And lots of years and miles on Lightning F40 bikes. In a nutshell:

a) The F40 will be much faster than a road bike on the flats, downhills, and smaller rolling hills. Exactly how much faster? Hard to say. It depends on how strong a rider you are (and your local topography). The stronger you are, the greater the benefit you will get from the vastly improved aerodynamics of the full fairing. (The power needed to overcome the effect of wind resistance increases as the cube of speed.) A very rough guestimate: Decently fit recreational riders can expect to go between twenty and thirty percent faster on the F40 than on a road bike with equal effort. Have a training regimen, do intervals, stick to a diet, and do time trials or races? You can do even better than the 20% to 30% gain.

The F40 - because of the streamlining - is unlike any other commercially available bike. It has been used to win RAAM twice. The 1989 four man team record still stands over twenty-five years on. One team member (Jim Penseyres) was a partial amputee. The 1989 record is still more impressive when you consider that RAAM rules regarding team rider transitions have been changed so as to make setting a new record easier. In 1989, riders had to come to a full stop at transitions. The rules were later changed to allow a rolling trade-off of riders. There is a good article about the 1989 RAAM win here:

https://www.adventurecorps.com/when/raam/1989raam.html

A very interesting interview with ultramarathon champ and RAAM veteran Pete Penseyres can be found here:

https://archive.org/details/PenseyresPodcastRecumbent

b) What about hill climbing? This is the Achilles' heel of recumbents, as roadies love to remind us. On small hills, you should not notice much difference. On rollers - a sequence of smaller hills linked closely together - you will go much faster on the F40. But when the hills are very steep, or very long, or worst of all very steep AND very long, you will climb better on your Cervelo. Perhaps much better. Even if you add weight to the Cervelo to make it match the heavier fully-faired F40. Why? I'm no exercise physiologist. How should I know? My guess is that multiple factors are involved: a) Your body's ability to deliver fresh oxygenated blood to your muscles may be greater in an upright position. Our species evolved to allow maximum cardio-pulmonary output when running on two legs: running after prey and fleeing from predators. Like the old rock song says: "Baby we were born to run," and upright cycling is more like running than recumbent cycling. b) Upright bikes let you use muscles in your back, abdomen, and upper body that are not equally well employed by recumbents. The more neutral upright position may let you use your quads, hamstrings etc. more efficiently than they can be used when recumbent. c) Upright bikes let you switch positions, giving some muscle groups a break, like the Tour de France riders standing on their pedals during steep climbs. At low climbing speeds the aerodynamic edge of the faired recumbent bike is insignificant. The ergodynamic advantage of the upright bike matters much more.

A consequence of a) and b) is that you probably won't make beautiful music together with upright cyclists of similar fitness on group rides. They will disappear behind you on the flats. You will lag behind them on the bad climbs. The longer the ride on mixed terrain, the bigger the advantage you will likely have. Upright riders - especially in an aero tuck - get fatigued just by maintaining their body position. The recumbent comfort advantage lets you stay fresh and ride stronger farther into long rides. If you want to get a real workout, you will need to either ride alone or ride with people far more fit than you.

Gerry Pease describes fully-faired recumbent hill climbing here:

https://billmegalos.com/union/Gerry_P..._Vs_Weight.pdf

c) What about safety? Upright cyclists often say "Recumbents may be comfy and fast. But they are too low for safe street riding. You can't see as well as an upright rider. Motorists can't see you as well either. When sharing the road with distracted drivers in SUVs - texting and talking on cellphones - I will be safer higher up." This criticism makes some recumbent riders kick and scream in denial. (Say things like this too often and you will be excluded from the most popular recumbent discussion site.) I'm a hardcore recumbent guy. But give the devil his due: all other things held constant, being lower to the ground does restrict your field of vision. Having your eyeballs about a foot or more higher up on an upright bike (compared to a Lightning recumbent) is an advantage for situational awareness. Though evaluating visibility is more complex than measuring eyeball height alone. Your ability to see around you depends on both eyeball height and body orientation. The slightly reclined position of the Lightning recumbent lets you twist your upper body at the waist and swivel your head on your neck in order to scan your periphery. This is not so easy to do when hunched over the handlebar of a traditional racing bike with your hands on the brifter hoods. Yeah, you can sit up to look around you. But that is only done intermittently. The normal position on the Cervelo is not conducive to getting good situational awareness. Road bikes have the eyeball height advantage. The slightly reclined body position of the Lightning gives you a peripheral vision advantage.

Visibility has two parts: seeing and being seen. When it comes to being seen by motorists, a Lightning F40 is in a class by itself. Covered in 3M Diamond Grade reflective tape and powerful flashing LED lights, it can't be beat. The same extensive fairing surface that gives you a major aerodynamic advantage is also perfect real estate for large areas of reflective material. With enough 3M fluorescent tape and LED lights, a Lightning F40 can do a fair imitation of the Mother Ship in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Recumbent cycles have a major advantage over uprights in braking and the avoidance of head injuries. The same lower rider position that can be a liability for seeing around you allows recumbent cyclists to squeeze their brakes as hard as they like in an emergency stop without fear of being pitched head-first over the handlebars. This results in shorter stopping distances and less likelihood of crashing. When recumbent cyclists do become intimately acquainted with the pavement, the lower feet-first position usually causes road rash on elbows and butts, not concussions and skull fractures.

Superior braking means you are less likely to crash. The lower feet-first riding position means that if you do crash, you are less likely to suffer brain damage. The much larger surface area of the fairing - when covered with 3M reflective sheeting and flashing lights - means motorists are far more likely to notice you and avoid collisions. The Lightning F40 is significantly more safe on the street than an upright road bike.

d) The main reason that most people get attracted to recumbent bikes in the first place is for the superior comfort they promise. Weight is not concentrated on a hard skinny saddle in contact with a very sensitive part of your anatomy. It is more widely distributed over an area like a lawn chair. Look at various recumbents and you can see that there is a wide range of variation in both body position and seat design. When if comes to comfort, not all recumbent bikes are created equal. The only way to find out which (if any) recumbent rubs you the right way is by personal riding experimentation. Sensuous experience is the key to intelligent selection, not picture gazing and endless theorizing. Comfort is highly subjective. If you are perfectly comfy on your Cervelo already, even on long rides, recumbents might be a solution to a non-existent problem.

The only way to determine if a Lightning recumbent offers you more smiles per hour due to superior comfort is to ride one. Preferably a longer distance. A quick ride around a parking lot will not be enough. Sometimes you will not discover more subtle comfort problems until you have multiple long rides. This may mean buying the bike before you are sure that it is the right machine for you. If you buy used, you can recoup most of your investment if it does not work out as hoped.

2) How to store a Lightning? Hang it from a ceiling hook, just like a road bike. Can the fully-faired F40 fit in the back of a van? I don't know about the RAV4. I have gotten two F40 bikes side by side in the back of a Chrysler minivan with room to spare.

Is an F40 a good choice for you? Maybe. You won't get reliable information from people who enjoy posturing in internet cycling newsgroups - running up enormous post counts - but have zero real-world F40 riding time. Theory is gray, but the tree of life is green. Getting a test ride on a Lightning F40 will not be easy. They are rare and expensive birds. You could likely find someone with a P-38 in your size who would let you take a test spin. At least you could find out how the bike feels to you. It is the greater comfort of recumbent bikes that pays the biggest dividend. Suppose you ride the unfaired Lightning P-38 and find the comfort, braking, handling, and speed to your liking. You could later upgrade it to street streamliner status by adding the F40 full fairing. Then you really will have - except on the tougher climbs - the world's fastest production bike.

Safe riding,
Joel Dickman


These three prevent most accidents: seeing, being seen, & (usually) common sense.

Garfield Cat

I would like to buy the P-38 in my size per Tim Brummer. Then ride it to try it out. Then loan it out to anyone in my area who wants to go on a long ride or two or three just to see if its a good bike for them. This seems to me the sticky point: not being able to try something out before buying.

Could this be a business? In a way, I think it can. Or at least get to recoup my investment in 3 years while I still ride my Cervelo.