Looking for "WIDE" Tubeless wheels that have sealed a rim
09-21-15, 07:44 AM
#26
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Taping a wheel does work well for mtb applications using lower inflation pressure but when you pump up to 80-100psi for a road application it becomes problematic as the air is always trying to escape somewhere. All it takes is one place inside the rim to have an issue, the tape will lift, and you're scratching your head wondering what happened. Lets say you bought a deep carbon rim and it has an uneven surface inside where the tape sits or the tape hasn't adhered properly then as you inflate the tire air is escaping under the tape and into the hollow rim cavity through a spoke hole, then you add sealant which follows the path of the escaping air that also fills the hollow rim cavity, not inside the tire where it should be leaving you unprotected from a puncture. Look, I know many are taping wheels without issue and obviously if it didn't work then big manufacturers like DT, Reynolds, and Hed, wouldn't sell their products to work as tubeless but taping will never work as good as a true "Certified" Road Tubeless wheel with a sealed rim, never. I've been riding with a set of Easton Haven's on my mtb for 5 years and Ultegra's on my road bike for 2 years both sets have sealed rims, both trouble free! I bought some Reynolds Assaults that claimed to be tubeless and had nothing but problems with two different sets so I found out first hand where the trouble lies and because of those problems choose to find rims that are sealed. I love my tubeless tires and what they have to offer but don't want to go through what I experienced again with tubeless tape.
....and Reynold's is ****e.
It doesn't make any sense to lock yourself out of many solid wheel choices because of user and/or installation error. Use a good tape, be sure it's the right width.
Your rationale makes as much sense as someone complaining about tubeless tires failing, after they've jacked the beads up with metal levers....
Think about it. Not making sense!
What tape and tape width, & what rim and width?
09-21-15, 08:09 AM
#27
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1. In the off chance you need to remove the rim tape, do you have to replace it to get a good seal again?
2. What is the pressure loss like compared to typical butyl tubes? I.e. do you need to air up multiple times a week or can you get away with riding for multiple days a week without significant air loss?
3. How finicky are the valves? I seem to be hearing enough about trouble with getting perfect seals that I'm not so sure I'm going to be saving myself as hassle by going with tubeless. If it's mainly user error in the opinion of the experienced users, I'd feel better about giving tubeless a try.
09-21-15, 08:17 AM
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I'm getting more curious about tubeless as I read more. A few questions for anyone with more experience (none in my case) with these wheels:
1. In the off chance you need to remove the rim tape, do you have to replace it to get a good seal again?
2. What is the pressure loss like compared to typical butyl tubes? I.e. do you need to air up multiple times a week or can you get away with riding for multiple days a week without significant air loss?
3. How finicky are the valves? I seem to be hearing enough about trouble with getting perfect seals that I'm not so sure I'm going to be saving myself as hassle by going with tubeless. If it's mainly user error in the opinion of the experienced users, I'd feel better about giving tubeless a try.
1. In the off chance you need to remove the rim tape, do you have to replace it to get a good seal again?
2. What is the pressure loss like compared to typical butyl tubes? I.e. do you need to air up multiple times a week or can you get away with riding for multiple days a week without significant air loss?
3. How finicky are the valves? I seem to be hearing enough about trouble with getting perfect seals that I'm not so sure I'm going to be saving myself as hassle by going with tubeless. If it's mainly user error in the opinion of the experienced users, I'd feel better about giving tubeless a try.
2) Pressure loss is a bit higher, you'll want to check your tires 2 or 3 times a week probably.
3) They aren't finicky if you mount them right, and you dab sealant around the base when mounting. Then once you initially pressurize the tire you give it a good shake to get the sealant up into all the cavities.
Some tape is far more finicky than others. I go to my LBS if I need a rim tape job. You need good technique, and some tapes are more finicky that others...the Stan's tape is hard to work with IMHO and needs done perfectly. I can, and do, do everything else on my bike-short of Stan's tape, it is kind of funny actually.
Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
09-21-15, 08:21 AM
#29
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Thread Starter
I don't know who tapes your rims but someone doesn't know what they're doing. Tape always adheres properly when applied properly. Everything you describe is resultant of serious user error...and on the extremely off chance air is inexplicably escaping the wheel...well, that's a 15 minute fix. Dismount the tire, and retape the wheel... and a properly taped wheel works easily as good as a "Certified" sealed tubeless rim. It is sealed.
....and Reynold's is ****e.
It doesn't make any sense to lock yourself out of many solid wheel choices because of user and/or installation error. Use a good tape, be sure it's the right width.
Your rationale makes as much sense as someone complaining about tubeless tires failing, after they've jacked the beads up with metal levers....
Think about it. Not making sense!
What tape and tape width, & what rim and width?
....and Reynold's is ****e.
It doesn't make any sense to lock yourself out of many solid wheel choices because of user and/or installation error. Use a good tape, be sure it's the right width.
Your rationale makes as much sense as someone complaining about tubeless tires failing, after they've jacked the beads up with metal levers....
Think about it. Not making sense!
What tape and tape width, & what rim and width?
09-21-15, 08:43 AM
#30
Senior Member
Some tape is far more finicky than others. I go to my LBS if I need a rim tape job. You need good technique, and some tapes are more finicky that others...the Stan's tape is hard to work with IMHO and needs done perfectly. I can, and do, do everything else on my bike-short of Stan's tape, it is kind of funny actually.
Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
09-21-15, 09:07 AM
#31
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It makes perfect sense if you've had to deal with it, if you haven't then great, I hope you never do. As far as user error, Reynolds taped all 4 wheels I had and all 4 leaked through the tape. I then attemted retaping with stans yellow, velo blue tubeless, and gorilla tape, all failed. In the case of the Reynolds wheels it ended up being a design flaw where the surface inside the rim was uneven and wouldn't let the tape seal. Sure i could have possibly applied some epoxy to fill the voids and got by but i couldn't see keeping faith in a flawed product so I returned them. But, because of this I choose to take tape out of the equation.
Nevertheless you're unnecessarily limiting yourself from good products all because of one bad experience with what turned out to be a defective wheel...and that doesn't make any sense. Plenty of good wheels that function fine in this regard. No problems with road pressures, etc.. Taped tubeless ready works just fine for road but, suit yourself. good luck!
09-21-15, 09:19 AM
#32
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1) Tape is one time use. You will never get it to seal as well again.
2) Pressure loss is a bit higher, you'll want to check your tires 2 or 3 times a week probably.
3) They aren't finicky if you mount them right, and you dab sealant around the base when mounting. Then once you initially pressurize the tire you give it a good shake to get the sealant up into all the cavities.
Some tape is far more finicky than others. I go to my LBS if I need a rim tape job. You need good technique, and some tapes are more finicky that others...the Stan's tape is hard to work with IMHO and needs done perfectly. I can, and do, do everything else on my bike-short of Stan's tape, it is kind of funny actually.
Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
2) Pressure loss is a bit higher, you'll want to check your tires 2 or 3 times a week probably.
3) They aren't finicky if you mount them right, and you dab sealant around the base when mounting. Then once you initially pressurize the tire you give it a good shake to get the sealant up into all the cavities.
Some tape is far more finicky than others. I go to my LBS if I need a rim tape job. You need good technique, and some tapes are more finicky that others...the Stan's tape is hard to work with IMHO and needs done perfectly. I can, and do, do everything else on my bike-short of Stan's tape, it is kind of funny actually.
Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
Pressure loss isn't higher in my experience. Minimal psi per day without riding, maybe 5 psi a day with in my experience...then again I check my pressure prior to every ride.
Don't dab sealant around the rim when mounting. It serves no good purpose for road tubeless. the tolerances between tire and rim should be more than tight enough to seal without any appreciable air loss over a day without sealant. If anything I keep Palmolive nearby to lube up the last bit of rim & bead when mounting the tire, it can be a bicth but nothing some judicious application of strength can't accomplish.
As far as bottoming out rims go...Uh, isn't going to happen if you're running the right pressure for your weight...unless of course you hit something massive. I'm #195 and I ride over some really crap road at speed and try as I might to not, I've hit some god awful things...and I've never whacked a rim yet.
What you get with tubeless is superior ride quality versus standard clinchers and vastly superior flat protection versus both tubular and standard clincher.
Tubeless isn't a hassle if, like everything else, you take the time to learn the particulars of how to make it work.
This ain't rocket science.
09-21-15, 09:23 AM
#33
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The magnetic trick for installing internal nipples looks easy enough. I haven't tried it yet, but it is on the list of things to try. And it should be easy enough to do with a deep profile rim.
It would seem like it would be worth it to spend a few extra minutes to get it right building the wheel... for a lifetime of worry free wheels.
No doubt, if they can get put in there the first time, the nipples can be replaced as needed.
My one complaint about my Aerohead OC rims is that the holes are too close to the side of the rim to be adequately protected. They aren't a very deep profile, so building might be a problem (and are not tubeless), but I'd be happy to not have any holes to worry about.
That extra 1mm of clearance with no rim tape may help make mounting/unmounting easier. Worth a try.
It would seem like it would be worth it to spend a few extra minutes to get it right building the wheel... for a lifetime of worry free wheels.
No doubt, if they can get put in there the first time, the nipples can be replaced as needed.
My one complaint about my Aerohead OC rims is that the holes are too close to the side of the rim to be adequately protected. They aren't a very deep profile, so building might be a problem (and are not tubeless), but I'd be happy to not have any holes to worry about.
That extra 1mm of clearance with no rim tape may help make mounting/unmounting easier. Worth a try.
09-21-15, 09:25 AM
#34
Vain, But Lacking Talent
It makes perfect sense if you've had to deal with it, if you haven't then great, I hope you never do. As far as user error, Reynolds taped all 4 wheels I had and all 4 leaked through the tape. I then attemted retaping with stans yellow, velo blue tubeless, and gorilla tape, all failed. In the case of the Reynolds wheels it ended up being a design flaw where the surface inside the rim was uneven and wouldn't let the tape seal. Sure i could have possibly applied some epoxy to fill the voids and got by but i couldn't see keeping faith in a flawed product so I returned them. But, because of this I choose to take tape out of the equation.
09-21-15, 10:02 AM
#35
Senior Member
Tape is cheap. Do it right once and you'll never have to worry about it...and applying tape is simple. Keep it taught and keep it straight relative to the rim channel...we're talking elementary skill here. Stan's tape sucks. Stan's for road sucks. Stan's was not designed with road in mind.
Don't dab sealant around the rim when mounting. It serves no good purpose for road tubeless. the tolerances between tire and rim should be more than tight enough to seal without any appreciable air loss over a day without sealant. If anything I keep Palmolive nearby to lube up the last bit of rim & bead when mounting the tire, it can be a bicth but nothing some judicious application of strength can't accomplish.
As far as bottoming out rims go...Uh, isn't going to happen if you're running the right pressure for your weight...unless of course you hit something massive. I'm #195 and I ride over some really crap road at speed and try as I might to not, I've hit some god awful things...and I've never whacked a rim yet.
What you get with tubeless is superior ride quality versus standard clinchers and vastly superior flat protection versus both tubular and standard clincher.
Tubeless isn't a hassle if, like everything else, you take the time to learn the particulars of how to make it work.
This ain't rocket science.
Tubeless isn't a hassle if, like everything else, you take the time to learn the particulars of how to make it work.
This ain't rocket science.
09-21-15, 10:19 AM
#36
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I could go several weeks with my Hutchinson Intensives with no noticeable air loss. Perhaps the tire is less permeable than all the newer brands of tires, but once sealant is added there should be no leaks from anywhere on the rim itself.
For whoever was airing up their tires a couple times a week cause they had the shop do an expert job taping them, I think you would have had better results doing it yourself. Or you need to add sealant.
For whoever was airing up their tires a couple times a week cause they had the shop do an expert job taping them, I think you would have had better results doing it yourself. Or you need to add sealant.
09-21-15, 11:01 AM
#37
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Can I pull up the tape to replace that nipple then stick it back down...?
Marcus recommended some sealant around the valve, not the rim. Is this necessary or not in your experience?.
Would you say the ride quality difference between tubeless and good clinchers is similar to the difference between good and cheap clinchers? I can definitely feel the latter so if I'm promised a similar gain going tubeless I'd certainly jump on that.
Marcus recommended some sealant around the valve, not the rim. Is this necessary or not in your experience?.
Would you say the ride quality difference between tubeless and good clinchers is similar to the difference between good and cheap clinchers? I can definitely feel the latter so if I'm promised a similar gain going tubeless I'd certainly jump on that.
Tubeless valve stems come with gaskets, no sealant necessary. Be sure an install them properly.
I went through various Continental tires, Michelin, Vittoria, Challenge and Specialized, before I switched to Hutchinson & Schwalbe tubeless... I quite prefer the tubeless. I'm also riding at lower PSI.
FYI...When injecting sealant do it with the valve stem at the 3 or 9 O'clock position, and when you air up the tire do it with the stem at 12 O'clock or you'll gunk up your valve core. Top off with sealant every 2 to 3 months (1oz) depending upon weather and whether or not you've had a puncture and lost any...
09-21-15, 11:14 AM
#38
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Tape is cheap. Do it right once and you'll never have to worry about it...and applying tape is simple. Keep it taught and keep it straight relative to the rim channel...we're talking elementary skill here. Stan's tape sucks. Stan's for road sucks. Stan's was not designed with road in mind.
Pressure loss isn't higher in my experience. Minimal psi per day without riding, maybe 5 psi a day with in my experience...then again I check my pressure prior to every ride.
Don't dab sealant around the rim when mounting. It serves no good purpose for road tubeless. the tolerances between tire and rim should be more than tight enough to seal without any appreciable air loss over a day without sealant. If anything I keep Palmolive nearby to lube up the last bit of rim & bead when mounting the tire, it can be a bicth but nothing some judicious application of strength can't accomplish.
As far as bottoming out rims go...Uh, isn't going to happen if you're running the right pressure for your weight...unless of course you hit something massive. I'm #195 and I ride over some really crap road at speed and try as I might to not, I've hit some god awful things...and I've never whacked a rim yet.
What you get with tubeless is superior ride quality versus standard clinchers and vastly superior flat protection versus both tubular and standard clincher.
Tubeless isn't a hassle if, like everything else, you take the time to learn the particulars of how to make it work.
This ain't rocket science.
Pressure loss isn't higher in my experience. Minimal psi per day without riding, maybe 5 psi a day with in my experience...then again I check my pressure prior to every ride.
Don't dab sealant around the rim when mounting. It serves no good purpose for road tubeless. the tolerances between tire and rim should be more than tight enough to seal without any appreciable air loss over a day without sealant. If anything I keep Palmolive nearby to lube up the last bit of rim & bead when mounting the tire, it can be a bicth but nothing some judicious application of strength can't accomplish.
As far as bottoming out rims go...Uh, isn't going to happen if you're running the right pressure for your weight...unless of course you hit something massive. I'm #195 and I ride over some really crap road at speed and try as I might to not, I've hit some god awful things...and I've never whacked a rim yet.
What you get with tubeless is superior ride quality versus standard clinchers and vastly superior flat protection versus both tubular and standard clincher.
Tubeless isn't a hassle if, like everything else, you take the time to learn the particulars of how to make it work.
This ain't rocket science.
5PSI/day (which is about what I see on my tubeless setup) is twice what a good butyl tube and tire does. So yes, it does leaks air at a higher rate. Which, isn't that much of an issue however it is something to be aware of since instead of pinch flatting you can kill a $200 rim if you bottom out. And no you don't apply sealant to the rim, you apply it above the gasket of the valve base as even the best gasket doesn't seal full up perfectly in such a case....eventually it'll seal after the wheel has been spun lots, but a dab around the valve base makes the initial inflate easier and less prone to leaking air.
Vastly superior? Meh. Compared to a good tubed tire/tube at the proper pressure of the correct size for the rider, better but not vastly.
I could go several weeks with my Hutchinson Intensives with no noticeable air loss. Perhaps the tire is less permeable than all the newer brands of tires, but once sealant is added there should be no leaks from anywhere on the rim itself.
For whoever was airing up their tires a couple times a week cause they had the shop do an expert job taping them, I think you would have had better results doing it yourself. Or you need to add sealant.
For whoever was airing up their tires a couple times a week cause they had the shop do an expert job taping them, I think you would have had better results doing it yourself. Or you need to add sealant.
Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 09-21-15 at 11:17 AM.
09-22-15, 05:39 AM
#40
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1)Whether it is worth the hassle is another can of worms. They do ride nice, and you can ride much lower pressures getting an even nicer ride...but you have to be careful-whereas when you bottom-out a tubed tire you only kill a $5 tube with a pinch flat, if you bottom-out a tubeless you can kill a $200 rim.
09-22-15, 05:52 AM
#41
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I'm going to disagree with you on your bottoming out theory with tubeless tires. By design, a tubeless tire's bead will stay locked to a tubeless specific rim bead in the event of a flat. A std clincher with a tube does not have this feature so it has a greater chance of damaging the rim in the event of a sudden air loss.
Yea it isn't a theory. I've done it on my commuter rims.
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 09-22-15 at 05:55 AM.
09-22-15, 06:15 AM
#42
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Thread Starter
Huh? That doesn't even make sense. The tire staying locked to the bead doesn't matter whatsoever wrt damaging a rim bottoming out a tubeless.
Yea it isn't a theory. I've done it on my commuter rims.
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
Yea it isn't a theory. I've done it on my commuter rims.
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
Last edited by dvdslw; 09-22-15 at 06:20 AM.
09-22-15, 07:25 AM
#43
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After a year on tubeless, I find them less of a hassle than clinchers and ride better. Tires cost more and that is the only downside. I also have tubulars and the only benefit, IMHO, is that they are very light. (Enve)
09-22-15, 07:56 AM
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Huh? That doesn't even make sense. The tire staying locked to the bead doesn't matter whatsoever wrt damaging a rim bottoming out a tubeless.
Yea it isn't a theory. I've done it on my commuter rims.
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
Yea it isn't a theory. I've done it on my commuter rims.
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
09-22-15, 11:14 AM
#45
Senior Member
Thread Starter
How is it rubbish?
Last edited by dvdslw; 09-22-15 at 11:21 AM.
09-22-15, 01:16 PM
#47
Vain, But Lacking Talent
09-22-15, 02:33 PM
#48
GATC
Run roadie tubeless on the lower pressure end of the spectrum (which everyone advocates doing because "WOOOHOOOO no pinch flats!!!") and go over a tall speedbump or a sharp drop speedbump/manhole cover with a bit of speed. Your tubeless tire can still be stuck to the rim and the tire bottom out out the road obstruction, damaging the rim. You won't get a pinch flat, you can even not lose tire pressure (ofc not pinch flat), but you can and will damage a rim. It ain't a theory. You don't see it happen with tubed tires as you'll pinch flat on normal road surfaces with less abrupt disruptions so you can never run them *that* low....the low tire pressures now possible removing the tube pinch from the equation entirely make it possible.
I am enjoying my tubeless setup.
09-22-15, 08:46 PM
#50
Vain, But Lacking Talent
I mean, the post you originally quoted specifically stated that you won't get a punch flat with a tubeless setup. So your direct statement that you don't get a pinch flat was very... interesting.