2manybikes

That's my kind of bike race. Well OK......it was 40 years ago.

FrozenK

I think tubeless may get to the point where they can replace tubed clinchers and offer something in between tubed and tubular. At that point they will become a very attractive option for us, weekend warriors.

For professionals and high level amateurs, I don't know. Somehow I don't see Dugast, Challenge or FMB making tubeless tires any time soon. And as long as the tire options stay limited so will the users.

BoSoxYacht

Tubeless for road has it's merits, but not for cyclocross.

Carbonfiberboy 

One might point out that drum-tested crr decreases as pressure increases for all tires. That includes "bumpy-drum" testing. There is no "lowest crr" at anything under maximum sidewall pressure. Which pressure of course varies with the tire, though pressure is never varied between tires in testing. Which is not to say that each tire doesn't have an optimum pressure below maximum for a particular use, which will vary with the tire. However the drum-tested crr at that optimum pressure may not be of much interest, since the tire is being run at sub-optimum drum crr for other reasons, like surface texture. OTOH, if the surface is perfectly smooth and hard, pump 'em up as much as you dare.

woodcraft

Spectator holding sign:

"God Hates Single Speeds"


LOL

Psimet2001 

^ - this. It just wont be the choice in cyclocross anytime in the near future. Hell Challenge has approached me a couple times about making my 38W rim open into the mtb market as a less expensive mtb tubular carbon rim. They say the market in Europe for mtb tubulars is amazing on the top end but no one in the US will consider anything other than tubeless.

Every year I watch riders try cyclocross. They start on the clinchers they have, then some try tubeless and go that way for a year or two. Then they try someone's tubular or try demo wheels that I have and then I get a big order from them on Monday morning. There is simply no other discipline where it makes as big of a difference.

UnfilteredDregs

I've been riding road tubeless for a little over 10k...as far as flat protection goes it's been fantastic, ride quality has been nice. I can't help but wonder, "Why not go tubular, using sealant?" Functionally, sealant wise, I don't see what the difference between tubeless and true tubular would be.

Sure, I can't slap a tube in, in case of all out failure, but that's a total suck scenario with tubeless anyway that I'm willing to hedge against...Might as well just carry another tire.

Any thoughts on that?

Psimet2001 

Didn't follow any of that - you talking road? Tubeless is fine on the road. I would ride that before tubular for the vast majority of road riding that people here do. That being said I personally prefer running tubes.

UnfilteredDregs

Yeah...road, why not sealant with tubular instead of tubeless?

FrozenK

I wouldn't consider tubulars for mtb, for the obvious reasons (flats happen in mtb) Plus, mountainbike tubeless works with no hassle. I can set Maxxis on Stans Rims with a floor pump and I have a plethora of tires to chose from that I can ride down to ~22-25 psi without problems (have gone down to 15-20 psi but the tire rolls on itself due to the tall sidewalls, wider rims would help with that) And you get much lower rolling resistance and the tire is more supple without a tube inside. The improvement over tubed is huge, the penalty minimal. I don't know that tubulars would improve much, and for marathon/endurance events tubulars have the big "what do I do when I flat" issue.

For cyclocross, as a back-of-the-pack racer in Anchorage where we have a very short season I have a hard time justifying the expense of tubulars which would be a race only wheelset. If tubeless can offer me an improvement over clinchers it may be worth it. Even if the performance isn't at the level of tubulars.

WalksOn2Wheels

Robert and I had a little convo about this a few months ago. The tubeless sealant in a tubular would work fine IF you were going to rock it for one season and be done with it. The sealant dries up over time and forms a ball. Here in the hot Texas climate, serious MTB riders will have to redo the sealant once every 4-6 months to avoid what's known as a "Stan's Ball" or more affectionately, a booger. It would be better to rock a tubular and only use sealant if you get a small puncture and want to save the tire without taking it off, opening it up to seal the tube, re-gluing, etc.

UnfilteredDregs

Thanks for that...supposedly Orange Seal, what I use, is booger free and evaporates with a negligible residue for the life of a tire across a riding season, even with maintenance replenishment- about 1 oz every 3 months. My thoughts are I go through a set of tires each year so it may make sense. I've sent a message to the Orange Seal folks as well.

RJM

Check out November's blog post from today. - November Bicycles: Race smart. - November Bicycles Blog

Psimet2001 

...and November and I will continue to disagree. The number of racers I have seen burp and lose it all when "real cross" starts (December/Jan - run up to Nationals, etc) is exceedingly high. Fact is you can run just about any tire system in nice to rainy conditions with about the same results as most riders don't even begin to ride their equipment near the limits and quite frankly if all you're doing is a Sunday ride in the park then tubeless might serve you well.

...but it has no place in serious cross racing as of the current state of technology. Even at the best it will get it will still be sup par to the supple response you get from tubulars. Period.

colnago62

The blog wasn't very convincing. Lots of unsupported, subjective statements.

rpenmanparker 

For the road my take on tubulars for those who don't have to have them is, indeed, to use no sealant UNTIL you need to. I carry Pit Stop, and it did the job the one time I called on it.

On the other hand, if you would rather use sealant from the outset, who cares about "boogers" inside a tubular tube that will never be opened up? They are a mess in tubeless when you need to get in there, but that isn't the case with the tube in a tubular tire.

UnfilteredDregs

Critical for sealant to work well is being in the tire to immediately work at the onset of a puncture. Many times I've come back from a ride and noticed way after the fact something has happened that's been completely mitigated by the sealant. It goes as far as slowing the egress of air due to a significant puncture, buying reaction time, something to consider safety wise; I've watched it happen to my front tire at significant speed. As far as boogers go, leaving them in the tire can impede the function of the sealant.

If I'm going to take the time by the side of the road to inject a sealant after the fact to repair a flat...I'd rather just change a tube.

Ice41000

Thing is, even properly inflated decent quality tire will puncture if you hit edge of the pothole or a rock at some speed.
It doesn't happen that often but my peace of mind is worth it.

I ride and race since 1990's so it is not that I have no clue at all.

beatlebee 

I've been riding road tubeless for a bit over a year, IRC tires, daily and have tubulars, veloflex carbon, for racing and hammer rides. At this point, I feel that there is very little difference in the quality of the ride and the IRCs even feel a bit more supple and I feel more confident on tight turns with them. Now, I may change this view as I get more miles on the tubulars, as I have only had them for a couple of months.

But, overall I am done with tubes. The only downside of tubeless as of now is that the tires are a bit more expensive but otherwise, I am so happy to not have to deal with tubes anymore. I have had punctures on the tubeless that I kept riding as it sealed and that certainly would have cost me a race if it was a tube.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, you are right, the TIRE will puncture under those conditions, not just the tube. No difference there between tubed and tubeless. All I can tell you is that I don't get pinch flats with tubed clinchers.

Ice41000

Well, I meant tube. I actually don't remember ever hitting something hard enough to damage the tire. Sidewall cuts don't count.
I guess you ride on better roads. Good for you.