dim

this video has 'put me off' carbon .... I might stick to old fashioned reynolds steel

redfooj

so we have a page-old thread claiming a new tire is the greatest, smoothest, fastest, most comfortable ever.
and weekly threads about 24 vs 30 vs 40 vs 50 vs 88mm carbon vs alloy vs carbon-alloy wheels and how some are the fastest, smoothest, stiffest, best upgrades ever.
and how the new 7902 dura-ace cranks give so much more power transfer than super-old 7901 cranks.
and those embedded iso-zertz gel blocks shot into seatposts, seatstays,seattubes, transform the feel of a bike.
and carbon rails on saddle provide a dream ride.
and etc


and yet somehow someone can conclude that between a kleintuscaad7 they owned in college against a friend's trekcialized11 they rode last weekend, for sure, incontestably, that the new aluminum frame must have been improved.

Lazyass

How did you come up with that number? Did you do some calculations on your body weight, predicted miles ridden, fatigue strength ect or read it on an internet post somewhere?

sced

The real benefit of this type of information comes through integration and assimilation.

series1811

Yes.

Better alloys, better extruding, better welding. They all make for a lighter, stronger frame than was possible 15 years ago.

Gweedo1

No. Do you have such a calculation? There is no way of accurately predicting how long a bike will last on the road in real life use as far as I know, and that "scientific" study posted above as "evidence" that people shouldn't worry about the durability of Al and C/F, starts off by making that statement. The longevity I predicted for my "modern" Al framed bike is a pure guess based on my usage and estimated time remaining in my riding career. In other words, I expect it will last for as long as I can ride it, considering my declining strength, and endurance, and reduced speeds, and my preference for riding in fair weather only, etc and so on.

There are two undeniable facts about my bike I can't dismiss and which I was fully aware of when I bough it: 1) Al has a service life of X amount of cycles, then it will break, regardless of how careful I am with it; 2) Carbon fibre can be fragile, as the above video demonstrates. Unfortunately, I had to buy a bike that came with a carbon fork. When I bought it, I was *warned* about mounting it on roof racks, as in be very careful because the c/f fork doesn't like to be exposed to certain forces. So, I have a bike that is, in the back of my mind, fragile, (c/f fork) and will break over time regardless of how I treat it, (Al frame) though that time may be and I hope will be a good, long time. Maybe during my ownership tenure I should replace my carbon forks every 5 years out of “prudence” so I don't end up like the rider in the above video? (imagine if that happened on a fast descent!)

These concerns/issues never crossed my mind when I was on Italian steel. Now, I will spend hours visually inspecting my frame and fork on a regular basis, looking for cracks. Over 12-15 years of predicted ownership, that will come to what? 400 hours of frame/fork inspection time? If, out of prudence I do replace my carbon forks every 5 years, that will come to what? Another 500.00?

Believe me, I have nothing against Al or c/f and as mentioned I like my Al bike very much, and admire and understand the appeal behind c/f bikes...but...if I could have purchased an Italian built steel bicycle for the same or a little more than what a good Al bike like mine costs, or what an "entry level" c/f costs, then make no mistake, that would be my ride of choice. Unfortunately, new Italian steel frames have become "art".

At present, there's a "vintage" market for steel bikes where sellers are asking as much or more for the bikes as when they were new,...mostly for Italian frames from what I can tell. I see no such market now or in the future for Al or c/f bikes. They are "disposable", not collectible IMO. If that's true, and I'm thinking it is as Al has been around for 20 years and I don't see 20 year old Al bikes being sold for what the original purchase price was, then it's for a reason, linked to durability/service life IMO. YMMV.

Gweedo1

I totally agree with that.

grolby

There are absolutely collectible vintage aluminum and carbon fiber bicycles of high value. There's a very simple reason that most collectible old bikes are steel: most old bikes are steel, period. Durability and quality isn't that relevant. Italian high-end steel of the 70's and 80's generally isn't of outstanding build quality, even for the standards of the day. There were also zillions of mass-produced steel frames of excellent quality that simply aren't worth much today. These were the "disposable" bikes of the time. Frame material isn't much of a factor in collectibility.

PepeM

Some people are incredibly paranoid.

joejack951

I wish I could insert the picture of my 1984 Trek 660 with 105 5800 on it but it's still a pile of parts. I need to fix that this weekend...mamils be damned.

gsa103

You do realize that the rider above had an Al bar go through his front spokes? He was crashing no matter what the fork was made out of. The only difference is that a steel bike would've weighed more when it landed on him.

Gweedo1

Oh, I didn't see that. It looked like the fork just exploded over a road hazard.

But then again, there is this site dedicated to c/f failures: Busted Carbon

I still don't trust my c/f fork like I would a good steel fork. Just the warning I got from my LBS about being careful with car roof racks was disturbing enough. I'll be keeping an eye on it regularly, looking for cracks, listening for odd sounds etc. I'm *a little bit* "spooked" to say the least.

Gweedo1

I didn't mention "collectible market", I said "vintage market" and I did say "mostly for Italian frame" bikes not gas pipe frames from Asia. In fact, I considered buying some, but then decided to try an Al frame and new "brifters" for less money...that's right, I could have bought a 20 year old Italian steel framed bike, with Camyp record, but for *more* than what I paid for a brand new Al framed bike with Ultegra and 105.

If you feel comfortable riding a 20 year old Al bike at full tilt, ...power to you. If you want to otoh, hang it on your wall, i.e. collect it you won't have to worry about collapsing the frame while you're riding it. I'd have no safety concerns riding a 20 year old Italian steel framed bike...none. I, personally, would not buy a used Al or c.f frame, no matter how old it was. YMMV.

joejack951

Don't let other people's paranoia become your own, even if they claim some 'expertise' on the subject. Carbon fiber doesn't need to be handled with kid gloves.

Lazyass

Damn you didn't need to write a book. Are you on meth? Just say you have no clue where 12-15 years came from haha

cruiserhead

I was riding a full carbon bike and it just exploded. I went flying and landed on an aluminum bike, which exploded from the impact. We both went flying from the explosion and landed on a steel bike. The steel bike saved us like a magical airbag. Luckily, a steel bike was around and three of us got on one bike and hitched a ride home. It was a 5 speed, steel rimmed road bike with 18c tires. Everything was made of steel and the guy said he would leave it underwater in his swimming pool to keep that protective surface rust going.

He would grind down bits of the steel frame and eat it. Claimed it cured cancer. I believe it.
Love steel. It's the panacea for anyone looking to ride. Anything else is scary and will catastrophically fail, just like it never did to me.

99Klein 

I was afraid of carbon too. As a big guy, it took me years to come around. Now half my bikes are carbon, I've got a set of carbon cranks (power meter) and am considering a CF stem/handlebar set up. We have a giant of a rider here locally. He's broken two aluminum frames but never a carbon. Always at the seat tube.

CF does make different noises though when your chain bounces around... You get use to it.

Lazyass

Well with carbon it's a matter of what happens when it does fail. It doesn't bend, that's for sure.

bigdo13

I am currently building up a new Aluminum frame that is precisely like the OP is talking about... thing is as light as carbon damn near, made from 7005 grade Aluminium alloy and is also very strong.. or so it feels... haven't ridden it yet as I'm still putting together it's drivetrain, but I am very intrigued as to ho wit may feel... I know this, the welding on it is a thing of beauty... much more subtle weld marks, almost to the point where they're not even visible...

If it is something special out there I may start endorsing new Alu frames to others, but for now i will withold my input... esp. since my last aluminum frame, an older Spesh Allez cracked twice! Meanwhile my carbon bikes are all still going strong..

datagov

I've been riding a Somec with Columbus SL since I bought it in NYC in 1990. I've taken it to Germany and Denmark when I lived there for 7 years and back again. It must have about 10,000 miles or more on it. Lots of equipment upgrades over the years, but it rides as smooth and fast today as the day I bought it. I decided late last year to get a new frame for the first time in 25 years. I looked at Carbon and Alu frames. Both are lighter, more modern, and have different ride characteristics. Couldn't be bothered to stress out about carbon cracks, and Alu bikes don't smooth out the bumps like Columbus steel. In the end, I decided to buy a 1992 Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra because I love how steel rides and don't care about the weight. And I always wanted an EM frame. Manufacturers moved from steel to Alu because Alu is cheaper to mass produce in a factory and new frame tubes induce hobby riders to upgrade their kit. But early Alu was harsh to ride on and along came Carbon Fiber, the wonder material. Still cheap to manufacture, very stiff, and more comfortable to ride one. I'll take a hand built steel frame that will be around long after I die any day.

Bob Dopolina 

A few things:

That website is old. The newest photo is from 2011. Also, considering how many millions of carbon bike there all around the world, right now, it isn't hard to come up with a few photos of products that failed.

Ever test ever run shows carbon is stronger asnd more durable than any other material ever used to make a bike frame.

The LBS that told you to be careful about putting your carbon form in a bikie rack are idiots. Shop somewhere else.

As to your fork, a myriad of factories have been making millions of carbon forks for decades now. If there was really a problem don't you think it would have surfaced by now? If it had, due to liability issues, all of those factories would have immendiately stopped making carbon forks.

You have nothing at all to worry about. Your carbon fork may outlast you.

Bob Dopolina 

Carbon isn't cheaper than steel or aluminium to manufacture. Materials are more expensive and the processe requires more expensive equipment and a lot more additional labour.

Maelochs

This thread isn't about frame materials, it is about preference, paranoia, and prejudice.

I won't try to convince anyone their bicycle-related preferences, paranoias, and prejudices are wrong if they will do me the same courtesy.

Though it is scientifically proven that if we all rode steel, all disease would be cured and everybody would be nice to each other.

Did you know "Satan" is Sanskrit for "Aluminum Frame"? I saw that on the Science Channel, right after the show about how The Big Bang was actually a Chinese CF knock-off being ridden too fast downhill.

My aluminum Dawes has a carbon fork, but my aluminum Cannondale has a steel fork---can I still get into Heaven, if I ride there on my steel Raleigh, or am I tainted beyond salvation?

I need to know, because, riding aluminum And CF, I know my days in this realm are surely coming swiftly to an end .....

cs1

Agreed, I believe hydroforming has allowed designers to really extend AL frame's useful life.

cs1

Not much longer, BMW just applied for a patent for extruded CF tubing. The will pull the cloth through a die then through the resin and heat all simultaneously. That basically automates tubing production. The only downfall is no curved tubing yet. They are going to use it on motorcycle frames. That technology should translate nicely to bicycle frames.