socaljoe

Seriously though, you usually can't tell in a situation like that descripbed in the OP whether or not the seemingly mean people are mean or focused. I find that's the case in many situations.

For example, people around me at work are used to me being outgoing and gregarious, so whenever I'm focused in something for several days or weeks, people start asking "What the hell's wrong with YOU?!" or I hear something like "Everyone's been noticing you're in a really bad mood," when I'm not - I'm just focused on what I'm doing because I really have to get it done, get it done well, and acheive the result needed.

That very well might have been the case in the OP, or not, who can tell?

One thing's for sure, there are things you can do (join clubs, go on club rides) and people you can seek out (friendly, more experienced riders in said clubs) to learn the ins and outs of riding in groups. Doing so would enable you to fall in with a group like the one in the OP without having your ass handed to you when you work your way through the paceline, only to start coasting in the lead position (which doesn't make any sense when you think about it, newbie or not).

Starclimber

Have to take issue with the 'experienced climber on a hard pitch wouldn't stop to instruct a beginner' comment from terrymorse. If it was an outright safety issue, they surely would. In fact, some years ago I was watching a guy lead a hard route with sparse protection, thinking he must be completely concentrated and unaware of anything but the task at hand when he suddenly called over to another party "Hey! There's a knot in your rope!". End THAT illusion. If I saw someone about to rappel off the end of their rope, I assure you I wouldn't hesitate to inform them of that fact, even if it meant 'blowing the onsight' of the climb I was on.

On the other hand...I fully agree that there is a right time and place for beginner level instruction, and it isn't mid-climb, nor mid-paceline.

Booger

Bingo. I'm unfit and brand new to cycling, so you can guess how much 'tude is tossed in my direction. I'm the first one to recognize my spot at the bottom of the cycling food chain, but I'm more than willing to learn. My requests for help from more established riders are mostly met with rolling eyes. I don't understand it.

geneman

Google is your friend. Don't assume others will show you the way. [insert deity of preference] helps those who help themselves.

paceline etiquette
paceline etiquette
paceline etiquette
paceline etiquette
paceline etiquette

Mark

Jenifer

Climbers are cool that way, and it's one reason I love the sport. But the situation described in the OP isn't quite the same. A better rock-climbing analogy might go more like this: A team is in the middle of a multi-pitch climb, when another pair of less-experienced climbers jumps onto their route just above them. The original team is patient with the pair, and offers some help and advice. But then the pair does something unsafe -- like carelessly knocking rocks loose, or dropping a rope-end without calling it -- and cops an attitude when the team protests. That's bad etiquette, bad sense, and incredibly dangerous. The team would be entirely justified in yelling at the pair to stop screwing around, and teams I've climbed with would do exactly that.

And anyway, what's wrong with Starbucks?

'nother

I will concede on the point of instruction-while-riding. However this was largely a side discussion which misses the basic point I have been trying to make repeatedly: you don't have to treat people like dirt in order to ensure ride safety. Also its converse: an unsafe situation does not confer the right to treat people like dirt.

Indulging in one's impulses to yell/scream/insult/toss a frame pump/whatever, though perhaps temporarily cathartic, does little to actually solve the problem at hand, and could actually make things worse. When you have a bad situation, you have a choice to do something about it, or complain about it. An unsafe situation doesn't "justify" anything other than dealing with the situation. All the anger, ego, and other crap is mere fluff; when someone's in danger, you check those things at the door and take corrective action.

Or better in this case might have been preventive action. I touched on this earlier but I have to wonder if this whole thing might have been made worse by the fact that the OP when "discussing" with the unknown guy, told him to get to the back. To me, that sounds like giving him the OK to stay on. If it was such a serious training ride with no time for chit chat, I don't understand why that would ever happen, nor why it wasn't made clear to the guy before things ever got as bad as they did. Politely ask him to go on by himself, drop him (surely this group was capable?), change routes, whatever -- but don't tell him to jump on the back, you've basically given him an invitation; that changes the scenario considerably, as he's no longer an interloper.

At any rate, I guess we come back to . . . did the OP's group actually treat the guy like dirt? I can't say; I wasn't there, and I suspect there's still a lot more to the story that we aren't hearing (notably, the unknown guy's side of it). I certainly hope they did not, though I can imagine when "everyone lit into him", it was not with a barrage of friendly riding tips. That, combined with the posting of a thread imagining/worrying about how Unknown New Guy is probably going home to complain to his wife about how "roadies are an arrogant lot", speaks volumes to me -- you don't wonder about such things without there being a kernel of truth.

teamawe

Not condoning but I'm sure that guy will never forget to pull-thru next time he's in a fast paceline. So there is something to be said for the severity that he was taught this lesson. And its possible that should someone have instructed him prior to or later on that he would still not have appreciated the ramifications nearly as much as he does now.

Telling your children not to go out into the street over dinner is one thing (delivered calmly), watching them run full blast after a ball knowing they arent going to stop is another (screamed hysterically).

va_cyclist

Isn't the act of shunning an entire group based on generalizations pretty much the definition of snobby? You're telling us that mountain bikers don't have money to burn?

va_cyclist

While I agree with the way your group handled this particular unanticipated situation, I'm curious about a couple of things. Was this new guy invited to join the ride, or did he show up at the start, or just appear out of nowhere on the road?

Second, was the always-pedal rule explained to him?

Lastly, a suggestion -- since you may from time to time bring in other, less-experienced riders, maybe it would be wise to adopt some new rules to handle such situations, like noobs cannot lead the paceline on their first ride, or that certain other rules (always pedal) can be relaxed when a noob is in the group, or some other compromise that allows for varying skill levels. If your group doesn't make allowances for newbies, then you'll never get any fresh blood...you don't want that, do you?

mattdaga

I agree with the post 100%. I broke my collarbone because the MORON in the front of the paceline stopped peddling. I was 3rd in line and could not get over the guy in the second spot. The 4th-6th went down as well but I was the only real casualty.

Pacelining is challenging and people along for the drag should not be in it.

EventServices

First of all, thanks for everyone's input.
Seriously, this was a surprisingly well-read thread that provides some prety good insight. Whomever started this thread deserves our praise and admiration.
I'm sure he's a jerk/snob/elitist but also known to pick up the tab often.

All this input will go into the book I'm writing.

To summarize:
- Tuesday night rides are meant for hammering, not for education.
- Any education that comes on Tuesday nights is likely to be spit out in staccato bullets while at speed and that may or may not be fully appreciated by the target audience.
- Any hurt feelings should be tended to after the ride breaks up.
- Jumping into a paceline without asking and then refusing to work is similar to jumping onto an 8x rowing crew mid-river and refusing to pull the oar. Someone WILL get hurt.
- There are two basic categories of 'snobs':
1. those true snobs who would be a snob regardless of what sport their playing
2. those percieved snobs who place their own safety/training agenda ahead of making friends

Thanks all.

biker7

A fair assessment. You didn't answer where your Tuesday night ride occurs in Michigan...that is if you live in the Great Lakes region as your avatar suggests.
Cheers,
George

twbradford

I could not agree more. This is what it is all about. While I don't think I am a snob...I am sure I appear so to those who wish to join me with their wide tire low gear 30 pounders. A colleague of mine found out I was going to ride over the weekend and she offered the company of herself, husband and 12 yr old daughter. To which I politely rejected the offer. She asked why. Then I explained the technical details about road riding. I am sure I looked like a snob to her.....

Mountain bikers don't have the same limitations as roadies thus why they can let their hair down. Roadies need to preserve their place on the road....a dark and forbidding place...a place of solitude...also a place of extreme danger for those not familiar with the aspects of being on a road.