SF Biker

Unquestionably, Base Training is important at the beginning of your training season. This is a great article that explains the pysiological changes that occur during Base Training. But I have to admit that after ending the season with intense fast rides, riding slow is hard to do ( but a neccessary none the less).


https://active.com/story.cfm?story_id...iveusahomepage

spunky

Here's an interesting counter to that argument. I think both have valid points.

https://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

galen_52657

Nobody ever got fast by riding slow. If you ride all year (at least on the trainer if not outside on the road) LSD is overrated. High-intensity work is what makes you fast.

DannoXYZ 

LSD's fine for the first season...

But don't get overtraining confused with "lack of base"...

galen_52657

If you have a 40hour a week job, it is very difficult to get 'overtrained'

DXchulo

I think LSD is meant for pros, not chumps like us. First of all, pros actually have time to put in the LSD since riding bikes is their job. Second, the pro season is a lot more damaging to the body than anything use mere mortals are going to go through in a regular season, so their bodies actually need time to recover. Just compare the Giro or the TDF to your hardest month of riding.

Besides, for me there just isn't much time to ride in the winter (less daylight, snow, and all that dreaded crap), so whatever time I do spend riding I try to make as tough as possible.

Going slower is fine if you're adding more resistance or weight training or something like that. Otherwise, use it or lose it.

spunky

Are you serious? I find that I have to force myself to take recovery days at least once a week.
Otherwise I find my body gradually wearing down over the weeks and eventually illness sets in.
Granted, it's nothing like the abuse a pro rider puts his/her body through. But I can definitely get to a state of general fatigue. It was hard for me to accept that a rest day was just as important to building muscle as is actually training.

Guest

BINGO!

Give this guy a cookie. He's got it right.

So many non-professionals take the training of professionals (and related articles, studies, etc.) and try to use it to explain why the rest of us cycling grunts should or shouldn't do something. Unfortunately, those non-professionals just don't get it, and they continue to equate themselves to professional athletes. Very few of us will ever get close to being at that level, so why train like you are?

Koffee

bac

That’s very interesting stuff, Koffee. What would you recommend in terms of training as it relates to heart rate for us non-pros that race? I’ll try to be more specific.

In the early months of training (lets say 4-6 months before one’s first race) what would you recommend in terms of heart-rate zones, and times? In other words, what kind of mix would you recommend? How about 2-4 months before ones’ first race? And those last 2 months before one’s first race?

I define my HR into 4 zones related to max-HR: 60-70%, 70-80%, 80-90%, and 90%+. I track these zones on every ride. So, I guess what I’m asking is what percentage of time should I spend in these zones in the 6-months prior to my first race? More specifically, how should these zones evolve over that same 6-month period? Also, should one mix up one’s base, and high-intensity on the same ride? In other words, if one does 2 hours of “base-level” riding on a ride, can one tack on 30 minutes of high-end stuff @ some point in the ride without jeopardizing all those base miles?

Yes, this has always been a point of confusion to me, as there seems to be plenty of information supporting a variety of techniques. I’ve always valued your opinion, and knowledge. So, what’s is your take?

ThanX Koffee!

filtersweep

Sorry, but that is a complete load of crapola. Sound training principles are the same for everyone. Two years ago I raced with a few cat 4 teammates who were mid-pack finishers. Two guys started following Friels program like religion and quickly catted up and were winning as cat 3s- within a year- and they were on the wrong side of 30. The trouble is, most weekend warriors don't have the discipline to follow the program. The other problem is that it simply is no fun to follow a highly structured program.

Yes, it is easy to overtrain- if ever ride you go out and ride as fast as you can, all the time, everyday, you will be a wreck. You do need to go slow to get fast- obviously not ALWAYS- but to incorporate rest into intervals, blah, blah, blah...

And riding slowly should be less about base and more about recovery... presuming someone doesn't completely lose their base.

Duke of Kent

I find many of your interpretations of proper training to be interesting. Believe it or not, Dr. Friel takes many of his methods from studies and training regimens of runners, and applies them to cycling. For all of you who think that intervals are the only thing that will make you faster, you are dead wrong. Without a proper base, you will never achieve anything remotely close to your desires.

Here's a true story from my senior year of high school track.

Two kids, both freshman, had done very well in cross country that fall. They had both gone to the same middle school, trained the same, played on the same soccer team, and both ran nearly the exact same times, switching places at most meets. Same build, same responses to our training program, etc. However, during the winter "base" phase, one decided to come out with the upper classmen, and log 50-60 mile, highly aerobic weeks. The other one decided to do tempo runs or intervals, against our coach's wishes, several times a week.

February came around, and indoor track started. The second kid, all intervals, was keeping up with the seniors on the intervals. The first one was a little while behind. However, as the season progressed, it became apparent that he was severely lacking in the aerobic development department. Intervals are fine and dandy, as they can be done with a weak aerobic system, given the proper recovery between reps. However, if not developed enough, during race conditions, aerobic threshold will be reached far quicker, and then lactic accumulation starts in a major way. The first kid, with the more aerobic training, was able to stave LT conditions off for a longer period of time. They ran nearly identical paces in the early to middle parts of races, but the interval trained kid died towards the end of nearly every one.

The first kid, who had done nothing but aerobic work during the winter and then 1 day of intervals and a tempo, and then a race on the weekend, ended up being a 4:47 miler and 10:19 2-miler his freshman year. The second kid never burned out, he was never "overtrained." Our coach didn't push them hard enough for that. He ended up running 4:59 and 10:43, which is still very good for a high school freshman.

Dead Extra #2

Finally, someone with a clue.

DXchulo

Recovery is good, but I don't think most of us need a whole winter of recovery. If you're feeling burned out from the season, just take a week or two off (or LSD) and I bet you'll be plenty recovered (physically, at least, but mental recovery times will vary).

After the week(s) off, take it slow for a while, and then get back to business. I think the best approach is to do a little bit of everything all year round- do some intervals and some long slow rides all in the same week. Any time you only do intervals or only do distance, the other area will suffer (I learned that from experience this year).

It's probably different for everyone, though. I'm naturally good at distance and bad with anaerobic stuff, and if I don't keep up with intervals I lose everything very quickly and it takes me a while to get back to form. During the winter I do just enough to keep my aerobic base and do more focusing on muscle strength and anaerobic improvement. Once it's warm and I'm back to riding a lot the aerobic stuff just comes naturally.

AnthonyG

Where does this idea come from that if someone is abusive then they must know what they're talking about?

Personaly when I see an abusive post I get the impression that they don't know what they're talking about and are simply repeating something that they beleive in but don't have the evidence to fully back up. Someone who know's what there talking about is capable of expressing there view without abuse because their confident enough in their knowledge, and know that nothing in life is black & white anyway.

Regards, Anthony

Dead Extra #2

Abusive maybe, but his post agrees with almost everything I've read and learned from real coaches of all levels.

Actually, it may be more appropriate to say that some of the other posts disagree directly with same.

AnthonyG

I'm not taking a position on which opinion is right or wrong. Simply agreeing with the current dominant view and abusing anyone who dares to hold an alternative view isn't paticuarly inteligent or displaying any real comprehension of the topic at hand.

Regards, Anthony

Enthalpic

Everyone is correct. All interval people are "always fit" trainers. LSD people are periodizers.

People at work I know have hired personal trainers but there is no chance I should train like them. We both may be average joes but we have different goals.

Ok Galen was wrong in my opinion; while working a full time job you can still put in 600 hour years (2 hours 6 days/week 51 weeks/year) and have a recovery day and vacation. I think most of us have had an overuse injury before. ;/

SF Biker

There is a guy in my club that does just that. He rides 7 days a week: 5 days a week he does a 40 miler, and Saturday and Sunday he rides a 60-100 miler. This guy rides in the rain, and at night. He has 3-4 lighting systems (and offered me one so we could ride together).. No thanks .

He works a full 40 hours per week, has a wife and a daugter, and a second job!

To my amazement he is still married after 11 years. Maybe that is the key to a great marrriage: Ride your bike all the time year around

BTW, he may be healthy, but he doesn't look so good these days.

Duke of Kent

[QUOTE=DXchulo]Recovery is good, but I don't think most of us need a whole winter of recovery. If you're feeling burned out from the season, just take a week or two off (or LSD) and I bet you'll be plenty recovered (physically, at least, but mental recovery times will vary).QUOTE]

The thing is, I don't use LSD as recovery. I wouldn't even term my rides LSD during the winter, either. I just get out the door at a pretty good pace, but never make it uncomfortable. A few sprints on the rollers to keep the legs quick, nothing more. My biggest strength is my aerobic capacity and endurance too, but I've realized that intervals during the winter months are really going to do next to nothing for me. Mileage, mileage, mileage. Then hills.

DXchulo

[QUOTE=Duke of Kent]Sounds more like LMD to me- Long Moderate Distance.

merlinextraligh

The problem with that analysis is that it ignores all the stresses put on your body other than cycling. You're training program needs to c onsider the stresses of your job, travel, family etc. It's actually easier to get over trained when you work a full time job, have a family, travel for business, and still try to train 10 hours plus per week.
Pros can go out and train 6 hours a day and then lay on the couch and have other things taken care of. Us working stiffs have to train, and meet all of life's other demands. If you have full time job, it's all the more importaqnt to train smart, because your marigns and time are thinner.

filtersweep

What is abusive about it? "Crapola?"- used for cheezeball effect?

Take your pick- base or recovery- they both involve riding "slowly". The thread is about riding slowly to get fast. With all due respect to Koffee, who posted this opinion (of the "why train at all" variety):

That answer says NOTHING about the original question other than to question why mere mortals would/should/NOT use training techniques reserved for the pros. Koffee never offerred an alternative training method for an amateur to become faster... Koffee basically said that the vast majority of fellow racers that show up at crits and road races and time trial, "just don't get it" because they use shreds of well established training techniques (and I am called "abusive"?).

The original post was about getting faster, NOT becoming professional or riding at a professional level.

Let me remind people of title of the post: "Hammerheads In Training...Slow Down To Go Fast" - to me, a hammerhead is always trying to see how fast he can go, chases down every rider he sees ahead of him- is probably riding 90% junk miles in heart rate zone that does nothing constructive. Hey, its fun- I'm guessing most people go through a hammerhead phase-

/spent way too much time responding to this... probably wasn't worth it...

DXchulo

Get used to it. Koffee talks a good game, but she never gets specific. Whenever people want REAL info from her she can't find the article, is having a computer problem, will tell you to get a coach, or is nowhere to be found. Just look at bac's post- she'll never give a good answer to that.

Anyway, to get to the OP's original article, this is what I have a problem with:

I'd shorten that break to 1 or 2 weeks. I just don't think our seasons are demanding enough to take a whole month off. For people like us, a month off would probably do more harm than good as we'd start losing a lot of what we worked all summer for.

Another issue I have:

Again, this is too long. Do a month at most. A month of distance is good enough to put me into distance mode. Then again, if you're only doing distance your speed is bound to suffer.

I don't want to discount the notion that riding slow can be a good thing. If you do intervals, you're going to have to take slow days here and there to recover. However, doing nothing but slow days for months at a time is a bad idea. You may get better at distance, but your speed will suffer. At the same time, doing nothing but intervals is just as bad. You'll kill your ability to ride for distance. Again, the best approach is to do a little of everything. OK, let's say you want to focus on distance during the winter. That's fine, but at least do one interval session a week just to maintain a reasonable anaerobic capacity. I like to take the other approach- I focus on anaerobic stuff/reistance training and do just enough to maintain my distance abilities. Again, it's personal- I find it easier to build for distance than to build for anaerobic capacity. I'm naturally built for distance and hills, not power on the flats, so I focus on my weakness.

Caveat: Everything I've said in this thread assumes you've been riding for at least a year and ride all year long.