fore0121

Hi all,

I'm going to be purchasing a new bike and wanted some input on frame materials. Actually not material (budget dictates Al) but types of Aluminum frames. I have narrowed the search to either the Cinelli Unica or the Cinelli Aliante Carve. Differences are:

Unica - Zonal Tubing, Carbon Seat Stays

Aliante - Airplane Tubing, Carbon Seat and Chain Stays, $400 more (CDN$)

I wanted to know if anyone has compared both Tubesets. I have the following questions:

1. I've heard the Zonal is quite a bit harsher than the Airplane, True?
2. Are Carbon Chain Stays really going to soften the ride substantially more than just Carbon Seat Stays?
3. Is the Airplane tubing more 'Delicate' i.e. will it dent, or is is less durable? (I'm currently at 195lbs, but going down as I write this).
4. Would Campag Veloce be a good Group for either frame? (currently riding 105)

The Airplane is just out of my budget, but I can definately make it work if the difference is worth it. I've heard the Airplane tubing makes a WAY better frame, just wanted to check with the experts here on the forum I can get a great deal on either for a 2003 this time of year as it's cold and snowy here in Toronto. I am a 'Good' rider (two centuries, averaging about 100 miles a week in season for the last three), wanting to step up a bit this year and I want to make sure I have a frame that will still perform as I improve for the near future. I don't want to repurchase in a year or two (although I am turning into a bit of a bike junkie).

Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated .

Thanks in advance

f

Smoothie104

Airplane is Columbus 2nd lightest tubing. At 195 and coming down you will be OK. It's the Starship frames that have a weight limit of 180 on some models. The Zonal is strong like bull and will be more durable. Not sure of the harshness difference between the 2 if any.

I think carbon in the vertical members is more effective in vibration dampening, like the fork and seat stays. I don't really know about the chainstays.


If it were me, I'd get the Cinelli Frame and use the $400 to step up the component group.

Just some thoughts......

fore0121

Thanks for the input Smoothie,

Anyone else have any experience in this area?

f

HarryK

I recently got an Zonal AL/carbon rear frame from the custom builder here. It's stiff and strong, very smooth, but not soft riding or flexy. The benefit is great response for acceleration and climbing compared to my old 531 steel bike. Makes the bike more fun when the heat turns up on hills or pacelines. Even with the "heavy" Zonal Megatube tubes, the 58 cm frame only weighs 2 lb, 14 oz (1300 gms).

I weigh 168, and thought about the thinner-walled Airplane. But, as a club/distance rider, I wanted durability (ie, a minimum 10 year, 30-50K mile bike) more than the last 200 gms weight savings. If you look on the Columbus website, believe Zonal is described as being durable, and ideal for "amateurs"....that's me. Talking with the frame builder convinced me good old triple-butted 7005 Zonal was the right choice.

Sorry I can't compare the two tubesets on ride, but I don't believe the Airplane is going to be that much softer than the Zonal in ride. The shape/dimensions of the tubing, and geometry would make a difference in ride as well. Mine's the Megatube (pear shape) in both the top tube and downtube, slightly sloping TT.

The selection of carbon fork and stays would probably be more important than the mainframe tubing, IMO. I've got the Ouzo Pro fork, and it's stiff and very responsive, but not soft. Carve may be softer. Carbon does filter the road surface vibrations well...but it's not a suspension. Wheels and tires also play a role in ride, as you know.

Good luck with your decision. You'll enjoy either Cinelli I'm sure!

fore0121

Thanks for the comments Harry, that's the kind of answer I was looking for. I'm no pro (that's probably my answer), but can anyone comment on the ride of the Airplane tubing? and what are the differences the sizing of the tubing on the downtubes? Is the Zonal just a different shape? Is it thicker?

My two other hang ups are:

1. Will the full carbon rear triangle of the Aliante be more "dampening" than only the Seat Stays being Carbon in the Unica?
2. I like Smoothies thinking, but what sort of an upgrade would the Campag Centaur be over the Veloce? Weight only? Any performance difference?

Thylacine

Are you just buying the frame, or complete bike? What prices are we talking here?

Also, if anyone has ever seen a test that demonstrates the 'vibration damping' characteristics of Carbon, please let me know, becuase I've never seen one. In fact, I'll put money on the fact that if you put 5psi less in your tires, or buy a 'compact' frame over a standard frame, you'll notice more of a 'damping' effect.

I think 'vibration damping' translates to 'Boy, it sure is cheap and easy to glue this piece of crap in the back, and it even saves us 100 grams!"

Just buy a good steel frame and be done with it :-)

Smoothie104

Words of wisdom. You guys would be suprised if you knew what a loose tube set or set of carbon stays sells for. A lot less than the finished product would make you believe.

But then, since most of us can't weld really well, we are at the manufactures mercy.


fore0121,

If you're not going to get much in performance gains for the upgraded components, but I think you'd get a lot more miles out of them

If you not going to keep the grouppo forever, that $400 will go quite a ways as far as wheel upgrades. And then you will get a little less weight and performance.

HarryK

Hey, I like steel too...been riding that for 30+ years. But, there is a little something to the carbon fiber as well when it comes to ride tuning.

Concerning tests, I did a simple drop test in my garage to compare the new Ouzo Pro fork to my old steel fork on the Raleigh. Just pick up the front end a couple of inches, and bounce it. The steel fork moves at least twice as much, based on what I can see, and "bonks" for several seconds throughout the whole frame, while the carbon is more of a quick "bing" which disappears.

Cheap and easy...yes,to a point. My frame uses a monobox rear fitting on the oversize BB. The rear stay is pre-made of course, and bonded in place. Framebuilder mentioned that it's quicker for him to build this way. Saving me some bucks, and a stiffer BB, isn't all bad either.

demoncyclist

I thought a standard frame would be more resilient, since the shorter tubes of a compact frame would give you a stouter and stiffer triangle. ANyway, if it were me, i would go with the less expensive, and probably longer lived Zonal tubeset. Use the money to go for either the upgrade to Centaur(10spd) over Veloce(9spd), or a better set of wheels than what you may have been thinking of. A lighter set of wheels will more than make up for a slightly heavier frame.

Neil H

some things to consider:
will this be a race-only bike or an 'all-the-time' bike?

Do you have race wheels or will you be using the one set of wheels all of the time?

Is your motive an increase in performance or the buzz of a new bike?

A weight saving of 150grams at the frame will show very little gain after a few weeks of riding. A weight saving of 150grams on wheels that you'll use only for racing or 'good days' will make a great deal of difference each time you slot them in. The whole bike, and you, will feel faster, lighter. Put some of your money into an equipment 'pool'. Things like race-only wheels; a range of cassettes; buy a stock of chains and replace regularly before they wear down the chainwheels. Don't throw all your money into a set of carbon chainstays until you've got a decent collection of spares and a toolbox in place. It's stuff like this that'll keep you on the road, not what your chainstays are made of.

fore0121

Thylacine,

Could be a complete bike or rebuilt with my existing 105 components from 2001. I'm leaning towards complete bike, I'd like new components and there would be a $150 to $200 cost to strip my bike, retro my 105 to the new frame. I confirmed pricing from the local distributor, Aliante is actually $750 more than the Unica.

2003 Unica:
Frame Only: $ 900 CAD
Veloce Equipped: $ 1850 CAD
Centaur Equipped: $ 2100 CAD

2003 Aliante:
Frame Only: $ 1700 CAD
Veloce Equipped: $ 2600 CAD
Centaur Equipped: $ 2850 CAD

Both grouppos include Open Pros with hubs from the appropriate grouppo.

I was pretty much thinking the same thing about the Carbon Stays, I think they'll reduce the vibration slightly, but they won't act as 'shock absorbers' or a suspension system. I am expecting a stiffer frame.


Neil H,

No racing, this will be an 'all the time' bike.

Is there another wheelset I should be looking at rather than the Open Pros. I'm a bit worried about going to a lighter/less spoked wheelset at 195 lbs. Will something like the Kysriums (sp?) be OK? Something else?

Motive, who needs motivation to buy a new bike . Actually, it's threefold. First, I'd like to improve my performance personally and in my group rides. Second, my current ride was bought to test the waters as to how much I liked/could ride and to get moving. I'm out enough and I've improved enough that I'd like to step it up a notch. I now can appreciate the subtlties of how a bike should fit/feel and would appreciate a new ride. It was bought used and is slightly big for me. I'd like to get one that is the proper fit for me. Third, it is about the buzz (well, maybe that's #1).

I have thought of the idea of a 'pool' of equipment, it's a good one. Chainstays are probably not that important, especially at the above confirmed pricing (as cost is a factor, or I wouldn't be knitpicking and buy the Ti or Carbon bike of my dreams). I like your thinking.

pinky

Wow...I got an Airplane AL frame for 300US...

Neil H

Ksyriums are good, but expensive, if you chew up some spokes or bend a rim. Open Pro's are great rims, and usually come up straight and requiring little truing when building. It all depends on the builder. I've seen some pre-built, factory assembled wheels based on OP'S that were terrible and probably never stay in true.

You can get a pretty light but strong wheel using standard hubs and OP's if you choose quality spokes such as DT revolution, Sapim Laser or CX-rays for the build. They are expensive though, and bring the cost of the wheelset close to that of 'boutique' wheels. My favourite wheels are built around Tune hubs, Open Pro rims and CX-ray spokes. They're way lighter than Ksyriums and easily servicable. I've never had to true them since the day they were built 3 years ago, but then again, I did build them

Good luck with whatever you choose, but remember, it's the rider that makes the bike.

Neil

HarryK

Whichever frame you choose, I would definately go to the Centaur grupo for the price difference above. From the little I know about Campy, believe it's a real step up from Veloce.

Share your concerns about wheels. I thought I'd go with the standard OP/DA 32 spoke wheels for my new bike also, for durability on club rides and multi-day events. I don't race. But my framebuilder suggested I try the Velomax Circuit Comps instead. He gives them good marks for durability. The great OEM price convinced me to try them, and I'm very pleased so far.

Also, you may want to consider an FSA BB and crankset. I notice Cinelli is fitting them to their built bikes instead of the Campy. I got the Carbon Team Pro triple on my new bike and like it a lot. Good luck on your decisions.

shinomaster

Thats all ...