When is it more efficient to sit and spin, and when is it more efficient to mash?
10-14-08, 08:40 PM
#76
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Spinning is really a fantasy on any real climb. Ask yourself this... Is it really spinning when you have to mash the pedals down really hard to keep that faster cadence? No, it's just fast mashing. What you want is to have the gears you need to keep pedaling as easily as possible while seated, for as long as possible when going up (not a racing situation).
Even then, no matter what the hill or how light or strong you are, you can only spin easily for so long until you start running out of gears. Eventually, before you get to the top, you're going to have to mash down those pedals, and you may have to stand. Standing lets you put a lot more weight down on the pedals, but it's also a lot more tiring for your legs. If you stand too early, you won't make it unless there's a flatter section between you and the top of the climb to provide a bit of recovery.
Even then, no matter what the hill or how light or strong you are, you can only spin easily for so long until you start running out of gears. Eventually, before you get to the top, you're going to have to mash down those pedals, and you may have to stand. Standing lets you put a lot more weight down on the pedals, but it's also a lot more tiring for your legs. If you stand too early, you won't make it unless there's a flatter section between you and the top of the climb to provide a bit of recovery.
10-14-08, 09:41 PM
#77
Making a kilometer blurry
The big point of the article is that you're not burning any more energy up by standing. So any losses would have to be between the pedals and the rear tire, like from increased drag.
As far as the above graph goes, it looks to me like speed is going up while power is going down. The initial acceleration of pedal RPM starts at T12:41: P1500: V24. next second shows peak power, then power falls off as efficiency increases and more of the forces are being used to accelerate the bike. Max RPM indicates the point right before efficiency goes to its highest level, and speed then levels off. I would be interested in seeing what the power requirements would be to maintain V33, after the acceleration phase is complete.
I do not see this as a contradiction of what I said earlier.
I do not see this as a contradiction of what I said earlier.
because a larger (meaning more frequent) number of accelerations have the advantage of working with, rather than against momentum. This is not rolling on a flat surface. The gravitational acceleration of the earth causes immediate backward acceleration at every moment that the bicycle is not under power.
Consider this:
Try pedaling one revolution of your crank per three seconds. Do a fast revolution, and then wait for three seconds "coasting". If you do it on a track, the bike will maintain velocity to a certain degree. If you do it on an uphill, the bike will possibly come to a complete standstill or even start to go backwards inbetween pedal strokes. Clearly this is an extreme example, but the physics are the same as what I am talking about. When you pedal out of the saddle in the traditional up-down way, there are stronger surges and longer "coasting" times per unit RPM than there are for spinning circles while seated.
These surges are not part of the mechanical inefficiency of the bicycle drivetrain. They are transmitted to the road. The only problem is that gravity is a constant acceleration pushing you literally backwards while you ride uphill. You need to have the most circular pedal stroke to overcome this and lose the least amount of forward (and upward) momentum, with the least energy expenditure. Also a faster cadence means that the dead spots in your stroke will have a lesser penalty since gravity has had less time to accelerate you backwards in each turn of the pedals.
We are speaking of climbing after all, and climbing is not anything like rolling on flats. The physical forces are vastly different.
Consider this:
Try pedaling one revolution of your crank per three seconds. Do a fast revolution, and then wait for three seconds "coasting". If you do it on a track, the bike will maintain velocity to a certain degree. If you do it on an uphill, the bike will possibly come to a complete standstill or even start to go backwards inbetween pedal strokes. Clearly this is an extreme example, but the physics are the same as what I am talking about. When you pedal out of the saddle in the traditional up-down way, there are stronger surges and longer "coasting" times per unit RPM than there are for spinning circles while seated.
These surges are not part of the mechanical inefficiency of the bicycle drivetrain. They are transmitted to the road. The only problem is that gravity is a constant acceleration pushing you literally backwards while you ride uphill. You need to have the most circular pedal stroke to overcome this and lose the least amount of forward (and upward) momentum, with the least energy expenditure. Also a faster cadence means that the dead spots in your stroke will have a lesser penalty since gravity has had less time to accelerate you backwards in each turn of the pedals.
We are speaking of climbing after all, and climbing is not anything like rolling on flats. The physical forces are vastly different.
10-15-08, 06:46 AM
#78
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I am a new rider and I have a triple. The smallest sprocket is lovingly referred to as my surrender sprocket. There are times when I absolutely die on a hill and have to drop down to a 30-25 as I do not have the endurance to be able to get to the top.
My next bike will have a standard but I will try to keep a similar ratio range.
My next bike will have a standard but I will try to keep a similar ratio range.
10-15-08, 06:58 AM
#79
Portland Fred
Have you actually been on one of those rides where people climb 15K feet or more in one day? Quite a few people spend the entire time spinning.
10-15-08, 11:03 AM
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because a larger (meaning more frequent) number of accelerations have the advantage of working with, rather than against momentum. This is not rolling on a flat surface. The gravitational acceleration of the earth causes immediate backward acceleration at every moment that the bicycle is not under power.
10-15-08, 11:19 AM
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There is more to standing than pushing down and pulling up on the pedals. Doing that causes a pause in every 1/2 stroke that the body needs to wait on before firing again. Try to get in a position on the bike with some flex in your midsection and weight slightly back so you can push the pedals over the top using the hip flexor muscles. The reason some guys "rock the bike" while standing is to adjust the position so they can push over the top of the stroke.
10-15-08, 11:22 AM
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10-15-08, 11:45 AM
#83
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Ok, I'll bite.
I'm a spinning instructor; have been consistently for about 9 years. I've seen it all. I have seasoned roadies in my classes along side those looking for some variety in their gym workouts. Additionally, I do a weekly class through the winter that's essentially a 2-hour trainer workout for a group of roadies (some racers) who don't venture out into the cold. Again, I have seen it all on the spinning bikes.
Yet I have never seen a "300 pound lady" in class standing on the pedals for 45-60 minutes.
Probably because I would never design a class that would do that. There would be no value in it.
There is value in using a spinning bike to work on your climbing form. Obviously it's nothing like being on the bike on the road. But on that fixed-gear flywheel, you can use the ride to train cadence, breathing, upper body form, breathing, and smoothness of pedal stroke. Oh, and did I mention breathing? No distractions. In a class setting, an instructor who is worth their salt will be attentive to your position on the bike and your form, and will coach accordingly.
If you can't or won't get outside to ride through the winter, consider the spinner. Trust me...among those who I ride with on the road, I know who spins all winter and who doesn't. The difference is obvious on the spring rides.
Beth
I'm a spinning instructor; have been consistently for about 9 years. I've seen it all. I have seasoned roadies in my classes along side those looking for some variety in their gym workouts. Additionally, I do a weekly class through the winter that's essentially a 2-hour trainer workout for a group of roadies (some racers) who don't venture out into the cold. Again, I have seen it all on the spinning bikes.
Yet I have never seen a "300 pound lady" in class standing on the pedals for 45-60 minutes.
Probably because I would never design a class that would do that. There would be no value in it.
There is value in using a spinning bike to work on your climbing form. Obviously it's nothing like being on the bike on the road. But on that fixed-gear flywheel, you can use the ride to train cadence, breathing, upper body form, breathing, and smoothness of pedal stroke. Oh, and did I mention breathing? No distractions. In a class setting, an instructor who is worth their salt will be attentive to your position on the bike and your form, and will coach accordingly.
If you can't or won't get outside to ride through the winter, consider the spinner. Trust me...among those who I ride with on the road, I know who spins all winter and who doesn't. The difference is obvious on the spring rides.
Beth
Thanks in advance for your input.
10-15-08, 11:46 AM
#84
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Usually when I stand up to give my butt a rest while in a paceline I pedal circles. When standing to accelerate I push and pull (sometimes the rear wheel jumps off the ground). But for climbing, I just let my weight do the work. Standing (for me) in a climb is a rest period for the legs. As I said before, I am mostly seated when climbing.
Also, for a sprint, I am probably doing some other kind of pedal stroke, so there are four different kinds of standing stroke, just for one rider, and likely many more variations. For climbing, I will stick with the easy-on-the-legs-method. If I want to use my legs more, I will just stay in the saddle.
Also, for a sprint, I am probably doing some other kind of pedal stroke, so there are four different kinds of standing stroke, just for one rider, and likely many more variations. For climbing, I will stick with the easy-on-the-legs-method. If I want to use my legs more, I will just stay in the saddle.
10-15-08, 12:09 PM
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Then I would agree with you whole heartedly that standing is less efficient when climbing. My sprint and my climb are almost identical. When your just using your weight and not as much of your muscle to keep the bike propelling forward your right about having a greater amount of acceleration to take care of. Do you ever try sprinting your climbs?
10-15-08, 12:12 PM
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Yeah I won a KOM in a club race this year that way, also sprinted for the line at a few races that end on hills but for the most part, the climbs are long enough around here that if you sprint your way up, you blow up.
10-15-08, 12:20 PM
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Where abouts are you? Unless your in the mountains, I can't imagine it being worse than Wisconsin. I find sprinting a hill and coasting down the other side is faster and saves more energy than spinning up and spinning down. This is how I beat countless people. If your blowing up on longer hills do you practice them more? Don't get me wrong, I'll blow up on a long hill w/o question, but I've always just thought I needed to practice sprints/climb-sprints more. Or do you think that it's just a waste of time to try and increase your sprint/climb-sprint endurance?
10-15-08, 12:45 PM
#88
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Thanks for the reply Beth. I always wanted to know about the spinning classes and how it would help in cycling. I know that this is off topic, but one question for you. Do you feel that spin classes will help maintain my fitness through the winter to include improvement as well?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Thanks in advance for your input.
If your plan is to hang the bike up in November and dust it off in April, then absolutely get yourself into some classes; 2-3/week on alternate days. Mix it up with weight training and other forms of cardiovascular training and you'll be ready to climb from the first day out in the spring.
Without knowing your current fitness level, I don't want to get more specific than that. I'd suggest you research a couple of gyms/trainers to find a good fit. Also, ask for suggestions at your trusty bike shop; around here, some of them also run indoor training programs.
I have some contact with spinning instructors across the country; if you'd like some referral into, pm me.
Beth
10-15-08, 12:52 PM
#89
Making a kilometer blurry
Where abouts are you? Unless your in the mountains, I can't imagine it being worse than Wisconsin. I find sprinting a hill and coasting down the other side is faster and saves more energy than spinning up and spinning down. This is how I beat countless people. If your blowing up on longer hills do you practice them more? Don't get me wrong, I'll blow up on a long hill w/o question, but I've always just thought I needed to practice sprints/climb-sprints more. Or do you think that it's just a waste of time to try and increase your sprint/climb-sprint endurance?
10-15-08, 01:26 PM
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Point well taken. I'm fairly new to the BFs and not sure what the local colloquialisms are and how they are defined. Back in my running days in x-country 400 meters could be a sprint. It all depends on your definition of sprint. I'll mind my verbiage more in the future to make it more BF appropriate.
10-15-08, 01:54 PM
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Interesting thread.
If I'm going hard up a long hill I stand to recover from sitting and sit to recover from standing. I find that if I alternate appropriately I get up the hill the fastest with the freshest legs. Maybe each method uses muscles a little differently to allow a slight recovery from each one.
If I'm going hard up a long hill I stand to recover from sitting and sit to recover from standing. I find that if I alternate appropriately I get up the hill the fastest with the freshest legs. Maybe each method uses muscles a little differently to allow a slight recovery from each one.
