njkayaker

????

Corbet's is a publically famous and well-known difficult run.

Many people who have never gone to Jackson Hole are aware of that. Everybody (with a few odd exceptions) who goes to Jackson Hole is aware of it. The lift servicing it has prominent signs indicating that it only services difficult runs (only black diamond runs) appropriate for expert skiers. There are prominent signs before you enter Corbett's warning of the extreme danger. Just looking at it is a warning.

That is, there are numerous hurdles in place before anybody actually does Corbett's.

(There are no similar hurdles before descending a public road, which is also something used/frequented by regular people.)

And running Corbet's doesn't require breaking the law (many KOM's do).

njkayaker

This is arguable!

And, yes, there is a difference: there are a heap of warnings about the half-pipe. Starting (basically) with the purchase of the lift-ticket at the beginning of the day. Keep in mind that terrain parks are indicated (very clearly) as only appropriate for "expert" skiers. Absolutely no road is qualified in a similar way.

You could argue that terrain parks shouldn't exist for those reasons. The resort though, is doing something to provide multiple warnings to people before they use them. The issue is that terrain parks (and how they are used) isn't the same as how public roads are being used by Strava users.

Yes, that's how it works.

The "general release" stuff with respect to ski resorts is interesting.

Skiing is an inherently very risky thing (even for beginners) that that many people want to do. This is generally understood by the public (even by non-skiers).

No one could invest in a resort unless there was some protection against that inherent risk. The only way any downhill skiing could exist as an activity is if the skiers assume all (pretty much) of the risk. And skiers are reminded repeatedly that they have to do that.

Note that the existential purpose of ski resorts is to ski (without skiing, there would be no ski resorts). The purpose of roads isn't to get KOM's (and breaking the law to do so).

(Keep in mind that the "general release" doesn't mean the resort can't be sued or is immune from being negligent.)

Brian Ratliff

I am just pointing out that the hypothetical "hypermileage Strava" is, in fact, too similar to the real Strava to settle to any conclusions. It is a great hypothetical in terms of similarities, but I don't think it helps us shed light on the real Strava. In fact, up to about halfway through your original posting on the subject, I thought you were talking about the very real hypermileage forums frequented by hybrid car users. I don't know if they hold actual competitions over specific routes, but it was well within the realm of possibility.

Brian Ratliff

A common issue with Strava is keeping the smartphone app running as you climb into your car at the end of the ride and proceed to set the KOM on every route on the way back home. You can fix this, but it requires logging onto the website and cutting out part of the route manually. So your 30mph KOMs might, in fact, have been set by cars.

Also, if they are shorter routes (less than a kilometer), they are sprint routes, and a sprinting cyclist can oftentimes exceed 30mph average.

crank_addict

This is exactly why many skiers 'push' themselves 'over the edge'. Get it? The ego, peers, glory recognition in beautiful Jackson Hole advertisements, online sites, magazines, etc. encourage it.
To please the righteous Americans, lets just start making more laws such as walking in public requires DOT, Snell approved helmets.

memebag

All of that, plus "people are just insane and blowing through lights and drafting off of cars."

If you set a KOM in your car on any popular segment it will be flagged ASAP by other riders on that segment.

rjones28 

I learned two very important things by reading this thread. First, bicycles were more advanced than cars during the Flintstones era. Second, Fred Flintstone was a hipster.

RollCNY

OK, I can see that, and I was referring to hypermile forums, and to a hypothetical competition among them encouraged by a website. I liked it as a parallel simply because it would be extremely similar to Strava, but it would resonate with non-cyclists more dramatically. I don't believe that it exists now, but it is a foreseeable possibility.

Let's face it, everyone who doesn't ride thinks that we are all nuts. To the average non-rider, descending at 25 mph is insane, and needlessly dangerous. The only reason anyone would go faster is because some evil website convinced them it was possible. Where cyclists know descending is a skill, and can be done aggressively and safely, the unfamiliar don't, and vilify Strava.

I believe that the hyper mileage example would resonate with non-cyclists, who are experienced with cars, and could see the good of friendly competition, and the harm of abandoning sound judgement for a meaningless internet status. That is why I liked it as a comparative.

njkayaker

There's a huge gap between reading a magazine and standing over Corbet's.

And any "encouragement" a magazine (or any such thing) is very nonspecific (they don't rank your performance against other people).

And Corbet's isn't a public road.

Get it? (Apparently not.)

crank_addict

My guess every licensed American driver has exceeded the posted speed limit at least once. OMG, better blame something, someone or yourself.

crank_addict

For these ridiculous cases, time for surviving families of the dead to pull up their panties and representing lawyers to find something else to do, like ride a bike. Good day

banerjek

This. And possibly many of us are nuts -- one of the more fun moves I pulled this year was pass a car that was already going 45mph (bet they weren't expecting that).

Sadly, people who are too stupid to figure out that it's dangerous to bomb down the side of a hill faster than anyone else on 100psi tires with about 1 square inch of contact sometimes pay the ultimate price because some website encouraged them to go too fast.

Rowan

In the context of this discussion... I can see bicycles often exceeding the speed limit meaningfully. And why not? Stop signs and red lights mean nothing, too.

Rowan

Does the ski resort put up signs encouraging users to exceed the new height record of 20' with triple backflip and barrel roll? If it did, it might well be held liable if an inexperienced user tried to beat the record.

It's called duty of care. I know Americans don't give a damn about it, but there are many other more enlightened places in the world which do. It comes down to assessing the risk for the expected user, and ensuring that the risk is reasonably minimised. Encouraging people to break the law on downhill KoMs -- implied as it may be -- becomes an issue when people do exceed their limitations and hurt themselves, and worse, others. Hence my illustration about the motorcycles on what is known as the Black Spur... informal as those challenges might be

I always suggest people put themselves in the situation of becoming quadraplegics after a bike accident, and how they would survive another 30 or 40 years. I can almost guarantee the first call their family makes is to a good liability lawyer to find a way of extracting the millions from someone, anyone, to care for them.

In this case, it seems the courts have sided with Strava, but I suspect there will be more cases arise, and it only takes a coherent quadraplegic to detail how Strava actively encouraged a step beyond the realms of reasonableness to cause a permanently incapacitating injury to maybe turn the whole situation around.

Rowan

Multiquoting is for newbie members.

Rowan

I am, but I also am not so ball-tearingly competitive that I will throw caution to the wind. I have spent a fair portion of my life in risk management roles, three years of it in full-time motor sport admin.

I'm also not a Strava participant.

Rowan

The biggest flaw in BH's summary is that not everyone who is intent on participating in Strava has any sort of sense. Common sense is a fallacy in its own right.

You should know that everything has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. And that can be really, really low sometimes.

Rowan

Oh gee, I just broke cxwrench's rules.

So sue me.

Rowan

It does happen. There was a case recently here in Australia where a major bicycle importer (the Felt one) was sued for a substantial amount after a rider fell off one of their bikes. I can't remember the exact detail.

Read my previous post about what you would do if you were "responsible for your own actions" and ended up a quadraplegic.

eja_ bottecchia

I don't think that we have a fundamental difference here.

I do participate in Strava, but not to compete against others. I do it to gauge my progress throughout "the season."

Competing against virtual "foes" is pretty much useless--there will always be those who are better than me and those who will be worse. So what's the point?

Enjoy the ride and ride safely!

cxwrench

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, you really got me w/ that one. Ouch.

Equinox

Strava is fine, and I don't believe it can or should be held responsible for people's irresponsibility. I use Strava to keep track of my individual performances. I do look at how my friends are doing and sometimes I do compete with them and some times I tell them I am. But under no circumstances would I do anything that would jeopardize my safety or health. That is a choice I make and it is my responsibility. Strava doesn't MAKE me do anything. The only cyclist I want to be better than is my previous self. The standings on segments might have significance or they can be completely irrelevant. For example, one of my friends is clearly riding to do well on certain segments. Fine. But how do you compare our performances when a particular segment is my 10th of the ride, an it is the only segment my friend does? Once in awhile, I can hang with the A-group if I'm having a great day and they're having a bad day. They are younger and more aggressive and they take more risks. That's fine. I will often feel uncomfortable and elect to back off, even though, I think I might be able to hang. It's over once they gap me. Do I feel any less of a cyclist? Absolutely not. I can't tell you how many times I've come up on the A-group as they were picking themselves up off a crash and/or waiting for an ambulance. Thank God, that hasn't happened to me...yet. It is a personal choice. Strava doesn't make me do anything.

banerjek

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones.

Think of all the poor guys whose psyches are crushed after learning that their downhill KOM has been beat by someone who may have been cheating or at least riding under different conditions. In desperation to escape the pain and trauma from this public humiliation, they turn to insanely dangerous activities. When will the madness end?