Psimet2001 

meh...cut them some slack. HED, Pacenti, Stans, etc aren't "manufacturers" either. Not many people in any business necessarily manufacture everything they offer. The thing is that we are OEMs when it's our stuff. So..kind of not the right line of thinking IMHO

canam73

Nope. Still waiting for the science.

canam73

Huh. So are you back to saying FLO's + or - 20 grams is a problem or not?

Bob Dopolina 

C'est normal.

Psimet2001 

take any aero study you want, assign a aero value to every wheel, compare the correlation between that value and the finishing position in any crit or road race.

You have anecdotes...I have results certified by officials and posted. My old rims ave been proven in labs to NOT be the most aero out there and yet they consistently beat wheels that were proven to be "more aero".

What 'science' do you want? You want a wind tunnel study? Pick one and stick to it. Everyone will tear you apart because your assumptions are wrong. Happens to everyone who studies it. Ever wonder why Zipp no longer participates in studies? Weight isn't important? Why do we lose weight? Why do components and frames continually get lighter? Is there some new basic law of physics and thermodynamics that says now that moving weight/mass is meaningless because aero is way more important than weight?

Of course there isn't. Aero drag is just one more component in the combined forces in the system. Read more than one place that people assert that getting an aero helmet and you will reap much larger benefits than an aero wheel. Losing weight....getting stronger...all things that will have a larger affect on performance than wheels.

So why wheels? They can greatly affect your ride quality and handling. After a century of riding it turns out riders prefer lighter and stiffer wheels. Where's the data? in every one of the thousands of wheel sales that happen daily.

FLO - taking the position that aero always is better than weight? Then you shouldn't have a 30mm wheel. You shouldn't even have more than 1 depth. You should only have the most aero. To have anything else is to admit there's more to it than just aero. To have a 30mm is to admit that total wheel weight is extremely important.

canam73

Why type all that if you are not going to actually read my posts and address what I am talking about? That is fine if you don't think I say anything worth while, but then why would you waste your time on it at all?

I guess you wouldn't be the first person to go big when they had nothing.

Bob Dopolina 

I don't work for a factory and I don't have my own wheel brand. I work with factories to manufacture other brands (not Kinlin - we source open tooling rims from them for some customers). I mentioned the XC-279 only because it is closer to the width and depth of your rim and people are familiar with it.

After having a quick look at other rims mentioned in this thread I think the new BOYD rim might be a fairer comparrison. It is 24 wide by 30 deep and listed at 475g. That's 95g lighter than the FLO30, non? How is this possible?

I'm willing to bet that the biggest reason your rims are heavier is that the only way to stop the sidewall buckling during forming was to add more material.

This might be another thing you may want to bring up with your vendor...

Bob Dopolina 

Ouch.

thirdgenbird

You are correct. I kind of went on a soapbox there and it came out wrong. I do think there is value in controlling the manufacturing process, but it's not everything and isn't a black and white guide to quality or consistency. Maybe it is a tiebreaker if all my other criteria are met.

reality is, I would consider the Pacenti. I know it costs more but Kirk is a good guy, and as I said, I prefer light to "aero". The HED Belgium looks like a great rim but I can't justify the price. Too many nice rims at a lower price point. I have no explanation, but Stans just doesn't appeal to me.

The flo rims are just in an odd place in the market.
I'm skeptical their aero claims will benefit most anyone
there are wide rims at the same price or cheaper
there are lighter rims at the same price or cheaper
there are strong rims at the same price or cheaper
There are better looking rims at the same price

For my riding, in going to take the wide rim that is lighter, better looking, and cheaper. to be honest, that leaves me back at h plus son. Any feelings on tb14s?

dmcdam

From everything I've read and discussed with others, the wider rims make for better handling and ride qualities by allowing the tire to take a better shape. I'm no racer either so that's the main reason I bought into the wider wheels.

As for manufacturing, I really have no issues with outsourcing. It's more the norm these days.

Cost-wise, I really looked at the whole wheel set price and for handbuilt wheels Flo was very competitive.

thirdgenbird

I understand the merits of wide wheels, but there are plenty of wide (and lighter) options at the same or cheaper price. What I meant was, I don't see the width being worth the premium over the fulcrum 5.

See my comments about manufacturing above.

Hand built value? A23 (or similar) to 6800 is about $250-300. In know they are heavier, but talk about a value. You may be $50-100 higher for a comparable hand built set, but that give you the option to select hubs and spokes.

What I should have said was that the flo 30 looks to be a little of everything but not enough of anything to make me interested.

edit:

20/24 cx ray spokes? Do the flo 30s flex under say a lean 170lbs?

Jiggle

Your wheels do not "beat" other people's wheels.

thirdgenbird

I think you missed his point.

dmcdam

I go onto Prowheelbuilder.com and I don't see a huge amount of really cheap wide wheels. The A23 is listed at $76. Stan's, Pacenti's, HED, DT Swiss, are all more expensive, some by a lot. When looked as a wheel set price all-in, the price looked really good compared to others. I looked really hard at the Boyd's but price wise I gave the edge to Flo.

I live an hour outside the city and my LBS doesn't build wheels. That leaves me with options of 2hrs driving so I'd prefer to order online. A23's and 6800's aren't wide rims, and they're heavier.

I'll be on 20/28 cx ray spokes, and the guys at FLO assured me they'll hold up. I ride on pretty nice smooth country roads and am not hard on my wheels so I'm sure they'll be fine.

Funny how different people see different things. I looked at the total package with the Flo's and thought they represented lots of upside and great value.

Jiggle

I see his point. It's incorrect. Wheels do not have agency. One rider using a certain component config beat another rider using another component config. The very small performance gains by the right components may have had a very small part, but we do not know.

thirdgenbird

A23s are one of the default wide rims and 6800s are hubs...


A23 23mm wide 451g $60
Tb14 23mm wide 490g $60
archetype 23mm wide 470g $70
DT Swiss 540 23.6mm wide 540g $80

The Flo Appears to be 1mm wider at the bead (where it affects ride quality) but it weighs 570g. Not worth the trade off in my opinion.

the bulk of the flo rim is in width that doesn't effect ride quality.

If I'm not mistaken, his point was that aerodynamic claims were marginal and unknown. If that wasn't the case, people using his wheels wouldn't win.

Jiggle

Kinlin wide 270 - $35.

achoo

To be fair, I'd say it was the riders that won, not the gear.

Are the riders using your wheels a representative population, or is there a selection bias involved in those that race on your wheels?

dmcdam

Sorry, thought you were referring to the WH6800's. The A23's I didn't like the sound of as there's been lots of references to inconsistent quality. I don't like the 6800 hubs being limited to 32 or 36 drillings - overkill IMO.

TB14's are shallow rims and I don't love that, same with the DTSwiss 540's. Is it a vanity thing - absolutely. The Archetype was the only other on your list that I was considering but when I paired them up with hubs and spokes (DT Swiss 350's for ex), I came up with prices well over the cost of the Flo's as a set. They're also heavier.

I simply liked the whole package for the Flo's. I haven't spec'd out my own wheel build before, and they provided lots of info, always responded quickly to emails, and put forward a nice solution at a competitive price.

I've thread-jacked this enough don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye on this one. Tell you what, if the snow ever melts up here I'll do a review on the wheels (yes even if I hate them).

thirdgenbird

Actually, I wouldn't say we won't see eye to eye. With this post, I can completely see why you bought what you did. They are not for me, but I'm a fan of box section rims. Quoting DT hubs skewed your price, but your options were limited it sounds.

i will try and keep an eye out for your review. I'm not keen on 20 cx ray spokes (on my bike) but my 16 spoke eurus wheels are also plenty stiff.

dmcdam

My sincere apologies to the OP for my part in blowing up his thread. Re: the Archetypes with CK hubs...do it and post pics.

dkoernert

No worries at all! This has been both entertaining and very informative.

redlude97

You can get rims hand built with your choice of Kinlin/Pacenti/H-Son rims with CX-Rays or Sapim Race spokes for around the same price as the FLOs with better spoke configurations and lighter overall here HOOPs Wheels - Home

Psimet2001 

You totally missed my point. It isn't and is only in certain specific instances at the absolute top of the sport - about the wheels...or the bike, or the helmet or the xxxxx. It has always been about the athlete and no wheel or bolt on gadget anywhere - ever - will make a rider a winner. The rider makes themselves a winner. As a wheel builder it is my role to provide what performs best for each rider. It's not always aero. It's not always weight. It's not always stiffness. That's the point.

See above - you missed that I was saying the same thing.

Is there a selection bias on those that race my wheels? No. State champs, National podiums, Pros, .....and fat slow ass cat 4's like me.....and recreational/enthusiasts. Thousands of them so...no. Unless you consider only people that have heard of me and don't want to pay as much for wheels as a selection bias.

Psimet2001 

Honestly it's threads like this that keep value at Bikeforums. The run of the mill - "what should I buy? do people ride in team jerseys? which chain lube is best? what's chamois cream?" threads dont hold the interest of anyone that's been riding for a while or on the forums for over a year or so.