Slower on new carbon bike vs. aluminum?
08-15-14, 12:50 PM
#76
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Sora vs. 105 = .3mph less
Less Aero position = .5mph less
A few weeks off the bike waiting for a new one = 1mph+ less.
All in all I'd rather have 105 Aluminum frame than Sora carbon frame.
Less Aero position = .5mph less
A few weeks off the bike waiting for a new one = 1mph+ less.
All in all I'd rather have 105 Aluminum frame than Sora carbon frame.
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08-15-14, 01:03 PM
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I'm willing to bet that the tire swap is the largest contributor to the conundrum you're experiencing. Rubino Pro's were my go-to tire for years because, in my experience, they had some of the lowest rolling resistance of any tire I'd tried . . . and if you were patient, you could get them on the cheap. Anyways, I've never ridden the Conti's, but can verify that the Rubino's are extremely quick-rolling tires. So that's part of it, I suspect.
And the incremental difference between 2 similar tires is certainly not. Besided Continental GP 4000S usually test out as very low rolling resistance tires; faster than Rubino's
Take a look at the linked chart. It takes 10.6 watts to overcome the rolling resistance of the Continental and 13.4 watts for the Rubino Pro III.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/
The total 13.4 watts is pretty insignificant at 18-20mph, where the total resistance is more like 200 watts. The 2.8 watt difference is truly deminimis.
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Last edited by merlinextraligh; 08-15-14 at 01:20 PM.
08-15-14, 01:17 PM
#78
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I think tires have a greater effect on perceived effort than actual effort. A tire that "rides better" (whatever that means to an individual rider) makes it seem like a bike is faster or takes less effort but the real impact is minimal.
08-15-14, 01:17 PM
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08-15-14, 01:57 PM
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08-15-14, 02:12 PM
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I'm willing to bet that the tire swap is the largest contributor to the conundrum you're experiencing. Rubino Pro's were my go-to tire for years because, in my experience, they had some of the lowest rolling resistance of any tire I'd tried . . . and if you were patient, you could get them on the cheap. Anyways, I've never ridden the Conti's, but can verify that the Rubino's are extremely quick-rolling tires. So that's part of it, I suspect.
The other part of it is that you're relatively new to the sport, and you've lost 20 lbs in the 4 months you've been riding (congrats, by the way). Especially when you're new to an endurance sport, your body needs time to recover. I suspect that you may be suffering from overtraining. WebMD has a primer on over-training. I'd recommend you be honest with yourself . . . riding 4 days in a row at high intensity can be too much, too early. The harder you ride, the longer your body needs to recover.
To provide totally unsolicited advice for free (so take it for what it's worth), I'd recommend you adjust your diet, and adjust your training. Consider some sort of paleo diet for athletes (a brief overview can be found here). Basically, up your protein + healthy fat intake, eliminate beans & wheat, and avoid carbs except to eat low-glycemic-index carbs for the purpose of recovery, such as yams or sweet potato. This will give your body the fuel it needs to recover and build muscle, while also allowing you to continue to lose excess body fat. I thought the whole paleo thing was a load of crap, until I tried it for 30 days and finally started to see that six pack I'd always wanted while simultaneously improving my athletic performance. Anyways, give it a go for 30 days, if you see results, great . . . if you don't, do whatever you want.
For the training, I'd recommend you ride only three days a week, with a minimum of one day off in between rides for recovery. Ideally, you should commute on Tuesday for 17.5 miles -- focus on sprinting as often as you can, and maintain a high average speed. On Thursday, commute for 17.5 miles, focusing on maintaining a high cadence (90-100 rpm) for the duration of the ride . . . let the speed be whatever the speed is. Then on Saturday, go for a long ride (25-35 miles), focusing on endurance (not speed), with a cadence around 85 rpm . . . don't worry about your average. The point here is ride 1 = speed work, ride 2 = cadence work, and ride 3 = endurance work. You want a day of rest in between ride 1 & 2, and 2 days rest after ride 3. Try that, in conjunction with an altered diet, for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, go balls-out on your typical commute and see how you do.
The other part of it is that you're relatively new to the sport, and you've lost 20 lbs in the 4 months you've been riding (congrats, by the way). Especially when you're new to an endurance sport, your body needs time to recover. I suspect that you may be suffering from overtraining. WebMD has a primer on over-training. I'd recommend you be honest with yourself . . . riding 4 days in a row at high intensity can be too much, too early. The harder you ride, the longer your body needs to recover.
To provide totally unsolicited advice for free (so take it for what it's worth), I'd recommend you adjust your diet, and adjust your training. Consider some sort of paleo diet for athletes (a brief overview can be found here). Basically, up your protein + healthy fat intake, eliminate beans & wheat, and avoid carbs except to eat low-glycemic-index carbs for the purpose of recovery, such as yams or sweet potato. This will give your body the fuel it needs to recover and build muscle, while also allowing you to continue to lose excess body fat. I thought the whole paleo thing was a load of crap, until I tried it for 30 days and finally started to see that six pack I'd always wanted while simultaneously improving my athletic performance. Anyways, give it a go for 30 days, if you see results, great . . . if you don't, do whatever you want.
For the training, I'd recommend you ride only three days a week, with a minimum of one day off in between rides for recovery. Ideally, you should commute on Tuesday for 17.5 miles -- focus on sprinting as often as you can, and maintain a high average speed. On Thursday, commute for 17.5 miles, focusing on maintaining a high cadence (90-100 rpm) for the duration of the ride . . . let the speed be whatever the speed is. Then on Saturday, go for a long ride (25-35 miles), focusing on endurance (not speed), with a cadence around 85 rpm . . . don't worry about your average. The point here is ride 1 = speed work, ride 2 = cadence work, and ride 3 = endurance work. You want a day of rest in between ride 1 & 2, and 2 days rest after ride 3. Try that, in conjunction with an altered diet, for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, go balls-out on your typical commute and see how you do.
I will give this diet and training plan a try and let's see.
Next month I signed up for my biggest challenge (organized cycling event girodisandiego.com)
I signed up for 65 miles with 4900ft of total elevation... I will go to LBS to check my fitting, I also got some wheels (Reynolds Solitude - much lighter than what I have now) for the event...
08-15-14, 02:18 PM
#83
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ive heard that two frames of the same size make etc.. will not be exactly the same in terms of performance as slight differences at the joints will affect the performance...so it doesnt always follow that one frame is better than another material wise... a lighter carbon frame and lighter wheels are the two biggies id say.. all else is really variable.. so its hard to compare like for like...mind you at the higher end bikes its a law of diminishing returns.. it takes a lot of innovation and cash to make you go that little bit faster.... when i was young and fit (not like now) my performance would vary on the same bike day by day week by week.. sometimes id fly and sometimes felt like i had an anchor dragging behind me... so your metabolism will have a lot to do with it, even with great weight loss... in short.. a carbon bike should out perform an aluminium one.. all else being equal
08-15-14, 03:21 PM
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08-15-14, 03:22 PM
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Sora is 267grams heavier, the actuation is about .2 seconds slower from cog to cog and the from big ring to small an astounding .7 seconds slower on average. A basic composite frame has a 2% kg per sq inch advantage over 7005 aluminum with the aluminum having the same weight with about a 1% standard deviation. Sum that and multiply it times 3600 seconds and you get a 2.7mph difference over a 27k feet ride.
08-15-14, 03:37 PM
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Sora is 267grams heavier, the actuation is about .2 seconds slower from cog to cog and the from big ring to small an astounding .7 seconds slower on average. A basic composite frame has a 2% kg per sq inch advantage over 7005 aluminum with the aluminum having the same weight with about a 1% standard deviation. Sum that and multiply it times 3600 seconds and you get a 2.7mph difference over a 27k feet ride.
08-15-14, 04:13 PM
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08-15-14, 11:06 PM
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while these figures are probably 8.6% off you'd be hard pressed to find that they are actually very accurate and that my bum holds more knowledge than most.
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08-15-14, 11:18 PM
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Very eloquent. You have a way with words. I would have simply said I pull them out of my ass and good luck finding any validity, but I'm just an oaf.
08-15-14, 11:30 PM
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08-19-14, 04:24 PM
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For the training, I'd recommend you ride only three days a week, with a minimum of one day off in between rides for recovery. Ideally, you should commute on Tuesday for 17.5 miles -- focus on sprinting as often as you can, and maintain a high average speed. On Thursday, commute for 17.5 miles, focusing on maintaining a high cadence (90-100 rpm) for the duration of the ride . . . let the speed be whatever the speed is. Then on Saturday, go for a long ride (25-35 miles), focusing on endurance (not speed), with a cadence around 85 rpm . . . don't worry about your average. The point here is ride 1 = speed work, ride 2 = cadence work, and ride 3 = endurance work. You want a day of rest in between ride 1 & 2, and 2 days rest after ride 3. Try that, in conjunction with an altered diet, for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, go balls-out on your typical commute and see how you do.
Following question is related to training and rest time for my upcoming metric century ride.
Should I change the training regimen for these three weeks before the race? And how many days should I rest before the race ?
Thanks.
08-19-14, 04:34 PM
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Slower on new carbon bike vs. aluminum?
If it's a priority to do your best for that event, cut back your volume the week before the ride. But still have some intensity work. Make 2 days before the event a rest day or recovery ride.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
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You could hit a tree and die.
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You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
08-19-14, 05:04 PM
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If it's a priority to do your best for that event, cut back your volume the week before the ride. But still have some intensity work. Make 2 days before the event a rest day or recovery ride.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
(And generally speaking I do not refer to a metric century ride as a race.)
08-19-14, 05:40 PM
#94
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Like @merlinextraligh suggested, take 2 days prior to the ride to focus on recovery. I'd make 2 days prior a complete day off. For the day prior, the goal is to keep your muscles from atrophying from non-use, but without working out hard enough to need to recover. Personally, I would do a very short (30 min or so) recovery ride at a very light load . . . just enough to warm your muscles up and break a sweat, but without really exerting yourself. You'll be tempted to exert yourself because you'll feel good and energetic . . . resist that temptation. That's my 2 cents.
Edited to add: for your diet, focus on gradually increasing your low-glycemic carb intake (i.e. sweet potatoes) for the two days prior.
08-19-14, 06:09 PM
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I'm about 225 and used to ride a Fuji with carbon forks and stays and the bike seemed faster, but wasn't as comfortable as the newer CF specialized bike for the same reason. Just seems like I'm a lot more bouncy at times when I'm on the pedals. I don't mind loosing a little speed though because now I can ride a lot longer and with a lot more ease.
08-19-14, 06:12 PM
#96
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Your new bike fit is less than optimal. I am guessing the saddle to bottom bracket position is the main issue. Of course if you are just off by seconds, then I am guessing it could be just regular day to day variation. Do you have a power meter?
08-20-14, 09:57 AM
#97
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Sora is 267grams heavier, the actuation is about .2 seconds slower from cog to cog and the from big ring to small an astounding .7 seconds slower on average. A basic composite frame has a 2% kg per sq inch advantage over 7005 aluminum with the aluminum having the same weight with about a 1% standard deviation. Sum that and multiply it times 3600 seconds and you get a 2.7mph difference over a 27k feet ride.
To make a different example. Say you raced a clone of yourself on an identical bicycle but the clone was required to coast for a period of 5 seconds every mile while you have constant cadence. The reality is that the 5 second coast allows a temporary increase of more power afterwards to compensate. Again assuming both riders are selecting an average power output that they can sustain for the period of the race.
This is assuming that you factored those shift delays into your calculation, if it's just based on weight that would be valid provided you also calculated the positive effect of higher weight on descents (assuming equivalent wind resistance)
Last edited by Wiggle; 08-20-14 at 10:07 AM.
08-20-14, 11:12 AM
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No I don't have a power meter, yet. I was thinking of getting it later eventually but currently from what I have seen it is too expensive. Also I am relatively new in cycling (~5 months).
08-20-14, 11:27 AM
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If it's a priority to do your best for that event, cut back your volume the week before the ride. But still have some intensity work. Make 2 days before the event a rest day or recovery ride.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
Day before, ride for an hour with a couple of 2-3 minute intervals. If you take the day before off you're likely be sluggish the day of event.
My priority will be to be fresh enough to enjoy the post ride festivities
. Total elevation gain is ~5000ft. About intervals, do you mean intervals with "all-out" effort ?
08-20-14, 11:40 AM
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Unless you're racing, a power meter is overkill. The vast majority of cyclists -- even those participating on these forums -- don't have power meters.