donrhummy

I've read a lot of stuff posted on here and elsewhere and have tried to follow the suggestions, but it doesn't seem to be working. All the rides that I have trouble on are 100+ mile rides (and usually in the 7-8 hour range).

My fueling is as follows:

* 20 oz of water mixed with Ultra-Fuel (a carb+fructose mix, it's a 3 carb grams to 1 sugar gram) every 60-80 minutes.
* An Odwalla bar every 45-60 minutes for the first 1-3 hours (and then none after that)
* Every other bottle of liquid has an electrolyte powder added

Despite the above, I always have HUGE drop-offs in my rides. Usually, it's after hour 5 or so, but with the extreme heat the other day (95 F, muggy), I started having problems in hour 4. The last ride was super hot and I started having problems at mile 50 just after the 3 hour mark. I ended up going through all my liquids and having to buy an additional 90 oz of Gatorade to make it through (the gatorade really helps give me energy, but it lasted only about 10-5 miles or so each time).

I don't understand. I'm fueling primarily with liquid fuel, and it includes electrolytes. It's a mix of carbs/simple sugars. I've also got plenty of water in there. How do I fix this?

Also, could it partially be that I use sunblock - i.e. this messes up my cooling/sweating? I refuse to not use sunblock (as I prefer bonks to skin cancer), but maybe I can do something diff?

EDIT: Changed liters to the proper ounces.

Marcello

Twenty liters of fluids every hour?

Cadillac

I find that sugar is an energy food that gives temporary help with a big drag once it wears off.
It is like a narcotic or alcohol in that there is a withdrawal problem when the sugar wears off.
You need to eat a variety of things -- including protein.
Protein (from a burger, eggs, cheese, etc.) may take longer to digest, but it does provide on-going fuel.

bigskymacadam

try to get your calories from complex carbs. banish the fructose. here's a wealth of info from hammer:
https://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE...RARY&CAT=SUGAR

and some info on the tour riders eat from chris carmichael
https://www.trainright.com/info.asp?a...splay&uid=3245

fructose won't carry you thru over a couple hours of riding. by replacing your ultra-fuel mixture with a powder that consists of maltodextrin, you'll be better off. i use perpetuem. others use something else. as long it doesn't have simple sugars.

add more electrolytes. at 95 degrees you are sweating a lot. the water/electrolyte balance is off a little judging from your description.

Spudmeister

I eat crap on long rides - cheeseburgers, burritos, moonpies & everything else. My nutritional plan (and it is a plan) is to eat the same stuff I eat every other day. I've seen riders with only liquid fuels get sick after 50 miles. Seems to me that the only time they they go with all this liquid fuel is the day of the 'big ride' - so not only is their body stressed by the effort of the ride, but the stomach is asked to handle food it is not in the habit of digesting.

I'm no expert, but I try to keep my stomach happy on long rides by consuming familiar food.

donrhummy

Thanks. I had originally been planning to use only complex carbs but everything I read (including a study linked to by someone on the forum) that said a mix of fructose and carbs works better than just carbs. That's why I added in some simple sugars. Also, I'm not certain my body has enough energy left after a few hours to continue processing the complex carbs. So should I cut them out at a certain point? Switch to simple sugars part way through? I find that after "crashing" the only thing that has any effect is a bunch of simple sugars from a liquid.

I hear you on the electrolytes. What powder would you recommend? The one I'm using is not cutting it. I swear that when I use it I get muscle cramps, and when I don't they go away (I've monitored this over diff. hours and seeing what happens, if I'm drinking the electrolyte mix, over the next 60 minutes).

bigskymacadam

I'm still dialing in my fueling strategy. I got used to a liquid diet rather easily. I weigh 154 lbs, so according to that I'm "supposed" to take in about 225 calories an hour. I'm not sure where to get this number. I'm told the body can only process up 300 calories an hour anyways; any more than that is wasted energy in digestion. All my powders and gels are from Hammer Nutrition. I parse out enough powder (Perpetuem) and gel (Espresso Hammer Gel) + water in a bottle to get me thru whatever length of time I'm riding. On Saturday's double century I had one and three quarters bottles to last me the ten hours. It was a thick mixture. I snuck a couple apricots and a chicken wrap on one rest stop. I had no simple sugars that I knew of except a package of fig newton. I consider fresh fruit to be complex carbs (but I really don't know). All my main calories were from the bottles.

Here's a crap load of reading on caloric intake and electrolytes and stuff:
https://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE...Y&CAT=MOREFUEL

For electrolytes, I consumed two tablets every half hour (two more per hour when the temps got up to eighty). They (Hammer) make a powder as well, but I'm not used to the dosage so I'm sticking with pills for now. I don't know if it was the electrolytes or training, but I didn't cramp this ride at all. I have a very fast metabolism, so I think that's why I need so many pills. Less than that I get weak and crampy. Other guys on the ride probably had two an hour, if that.

In addition, I planned to not have a breakfast and it worked well. I had no gastric problems, cramps or heat sickness. Pouring water on my head helped cool me down a lot in the last 75 miles or so. I did need a massage they next day. My muscles were sore.

So Cal commuter

....have you tried lots of spaghetti the night before, bannanas the moring of(on top of whatever else you eat)? I'm all about the carbs and potassuim. But I dont ride competitively yet, I just swim competitively. But bannanas really really help me on distance events. Oh yeah, my favorite liquid while riding is 50/50 water and gatorade. On really long rides, its bannanas, my gatorade/water, and power bars. Snickers works too. And theyre yummier. But Im not racing anyone. Just trying to finish.

tibikefor2

I have been on a program similar to bigsky for a numerous years without a problem. I maltodexetrin instead of fructose or sucrose is the way to go, atleast for me.

2manybikes

It could be training too. How many long rides do you do in the heat? 95f and muggy is pretty hot if you try and go quickly. A big change in ride length and/or temperature could cause this.

NoRacer

+1

If your plan is to go long, then you need to train specifically for riding a long time in the saddle while fueling. This means training rides of at least 60% of the goal distance at goal pace while practicing your fueling plan which should include a taper of volume a day or so before the practice session, an increase in short, fast, intense rides fueled by a mix of complex and simple carbohydrate with emphasis on complex slow (low glycemic index) carbs just before you go long.

Approaching the day of the "event", you'll want to have tapered over 3 days or so, switching your diet to about 70% carbohydrate, and re-enforce glycogen storage by staying hydrated. For every gram of carbohydrate stored in your muscles, your body requires 3 grams of water, so some weight gain is inevitable prior to the "event".

If the weather looks like it's going to be hot and humid, you need to include electrolyte replenishment as part of your plan. This may take the form of electrolyte capsules or tablets. Don't depend on getting enough electrolytes simply by drinking Gatorade. Under some circumstances, Gatorade -may- be good enough, but when you are riding over 4 hours in extreme conditions, you need more.

During the event, you need to put your fuleing plan into effect and stick with it. Even then, success can not be guaranteed, but the chance for success is greater than simply "winging it" or having an eating plan that isn't really a plan at all.

Did you see this in an earlier post that I made?

The mathematics of race fueling

spokenword

+0.5

I do a mix of real food and 'tech' food. I have a diluted mix of Hammer gel in my water bottles, a hydration pack that is pure water, and a half-dozen packets of gel that I take straight with a water chaser for most of my regular mileage. But then I'll pillage farmstands and delis along the route whenever I feel like it. Of course, I ride non-competitively, so my standards aren't quite up to the bar that some other posters hold themselves to.

However, for me, riding through the farmland of Vermont and New Hampshire, it seems an awful shame to pass up on some fresh strawberries or apples along the way; and I wouldn't be having as much fun if all I had in my mouth was that off-sweet, slightly tacky tang of supplement.

It is important to train with the diet that you plan on using, and I do use the gels when I go on my training rides, and haven't had a problem with mixing and matching. I think that, for me, sticking to one side exclusively is to ignore the benefits of the other. The liquid diet stuff is good for even, dependable energy. Real food is good for morale. I might not be finishing in the lead pack, but I'm still having fun, stopping along the route and enjoying the terrain that I'm travelling through.

donrhummy

I keep reading that everyone uses maltodextrin. Where can I buy this? In what form?

donrhummy

So what's the real answer? Some people said, "Don't use too much solid foods, stick to liquids." Others said, "Don't use simple sugars at all," while others said, "Use a mix of simple sugars and complex carbs," and still others, "don't use any complex carbs, your body won't be able to break them down." What's the answer? Why?

(See this thread for some of those suggestions/reasons: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/207094-what-ingredients-make-my-own-carb-sports-drink.html )

I know that a number of times, my fueling has let me down. (And no, it's not because I'm not used to doing that distance. I've ridden 4 100+ mile rides so far this year and 7 total rides of 80+ miles in the last 2.5 months)

spokenword

to answer your previous question: maltodextrin is a quickly processed complex carbohydrate; and is an ingredient in a lot of Hammer Nutrition products, Endurox's Accelerade and Gu Energy gels. It's probably worth pointing out that Clif doesn't use maltodextrin in its Clif Shot products as they tend to prioritize more natural ingredients like brown rice syrup and cane juice.

The reason why there are a lot of different answers is that we all have different physiologies and reactions to different forms of nutrition. We can suggest to you what works for us, but that doesn't necessarily mean it works for you. Take in the options, try a few, compare your experiences, and adjust accordingly.

And never expect real, definitive answers on internet forums. That's like expecting political solutions to Middle Eastern politics on talk radio.

Richard Cranium

Usually, if you can't figure out what kinds of fluids and fuels work for yourself -- it's best to try any old formula someone on the Internet says works for them ---- NOT.......

Off hand the silliest aspect of your fluid/fueling stratagy is the "mixing" of so many mineral-laden products. The very idea that you somehow think you know what you are actually doing to your hydration and mineral levels is ridiculous.

Could I suggest that you go back to normal foods and water when riding. And then try to add-in each product you think will help you. That is, add them in one at a time.......

merider1

I agree. I've neve tried to figure out an exact equation of fuel and hydration on rides nor do I rely on powders/gels/etc. These are great to have along as alternate fuel sources, but if you can, go for the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, pretzels and mixed nuts at the rest stops (I skip the fruit except bananas, but that's just me). And if all else fails, do what I do, eat a Snickers with Almonds! Those stick to my ribs but rarely do I "crash" from the sugar. Besides, when else besides riding 60+ miles do you get to just chow down on a Snickers bar?

Jarery

I have been trying hammer products lately. So far i like them better than any other. Least amount of stomache problems, and a flavor/sweetness level I can handle for extended durations.

What I dont like is their marketing/pricing method. They recomend 2 scoops of perbetuem an hour, 1-6 electrlyte capsules an hour, and a couple gells an hour. That works out to about $6.00/hr for nutrition. On a 10 hour ride thats 60 bucks in sports drink. I can drive my car for cheaper

I hate that they sell electrolytes seperate. DOes that mean their premium sports drink, perbetuem, doesnt have enough electrolytes to supply an athelete on its own?

bigskymacadam

2 scoops + 2 gels is 440 calories an hour. That's too much. Use less product. Half in fact. They would be the first to recommend using less.

1-6 Endurolytes depends on the heat. Out here in Portland I use less; while if I'm elsewhere I'd use more if it's hot. For morning rides I don't any at all. In the afternoon, I use up to six an hour so it evens out. I don't know why they don't have a better electrolyte profile in Perpetuem, but maybe it's for customization purposes like depending upon the temps. I too consider ever sip I take or electrolyte I swallow to have monetary value.

I'm always on the lookout for new products, like I came across https://www.oscycling.com ... but Hammer was still 25% per calorie cheaper.

u1st

I would probably guess that:
1) You're not drinking enough
2) You're not taking enough electrolytes
3) You're not taking in enough of the right carbs over the long haul

There's a lot of good articles over at ultracycling.com. Specifically, read up on sweat-rate and electrolyte replenishment. From what I've gathered, it's important to replace what you've lost while also maintaining the proper ratios or you will start to have problems that are exacerbated the longer your rides are.
Myself, I've found that I sweat about 30oz per hour. Therefore I need to replace those 30oz, plus the electrolytes that I've lost per hour. Surprisingly,(or maybe not so surprisingly) the ratio of electrolytes to liquid that I take in is very similar to what's in...sweat. Keep in mind that a persons requirements for electrolytes can change over a season as you become more fit, so take this with a grain of salt. (pun very much intended)
Also keep in mind that regardless of how many calories you burn, you can only digest so much per hour. I forget off hand how much it is, but I want to say that it's in the ballpark of 300 cal. (If I'm wrong about that, somebody please speak up) Anyway, my point is, if you can only get in so much, try to put in what can be digested quickly and put to work by your muscles as soon as possible. I've read that simple sugars can delay gastric emptying as well as fats and proteins in improper ratios. So I stick to complex carbs from maltodextrin. They digest quickly and burn more slowly and evenly than simple sugars. Ever feel bloated during a ride after you've eaten? Feel thirsty even though you've got water sloshing around in your gut? Chances are it's because you're asking your stomach to digest more than it can handle.

What I've done that has always worked for me in the past is to mix up my own gel/energy drink that has the ratios of complex carbs and electrolytes per serving all worked out so I can just add it to my water bottle and go. For my electrolytes I use table salt for sodium and a salt substitute for potassium. I'll through in some Tums w/ magnesium and calcium to pop on really long rides to be on the safe side, but I don't think these are as critical as sodium/potassium. You can get maltodextrin from a homebrew supply shop, but it can tend to be expensive. What I use is called 'Carbo Gain' from Now Foods. Last I checked it was about $12-$15 for a 7lb container. I don't bother to add any protein because I haven't read anything that would lead me to believe that it provides energy or any other short term (i.e., during the ride) benefit. After the ride for recovery, I'll eat as much as I can shovel in, though.

I'm not a doctor, bio-medical researcher, nutritional counselor, or religious icon, so anyone who would like to comment, please do. What I do is only based on the research I've pulled together from different sources, so I'm always interested in learning more.

I can post my recipe that I use if anyone is interested

ronsmithjunior

I'd guess that most people use a commercial drink that is based on maltodextrin, e.g. Hammer's Sustained Energy or Perpetuem. Both work well for me.

One person I know buys it in bulk from J.M. Swank. A 50 lb bag costs $40 plus $20 shipping. You need to decide what DE (dextrose equivalent) you want. The higher the sweeter. Check this out:

https://www.varied.com/food/maldescr.html

I recently got done experimenting with what I think (it was given to me) was M500 on the product code. That has a DE of 9-12. When I order a bag for myself I will probably go with the M180, with a slightly higher DE. This is break down of what DE is used for the different applications:

https://www.varied.com/food/foodap.html

The form is a powder that easily disolves in water. Some of the endurance riders I know either use it straight, or mix it with a protein powder. The stuff I was given was the malto+protein mix.

Obviously this is stuff you want to experiment with before heading out for a long ride.

donrhummy

Is the 300 cal/hr pretty much what everyone sticks to as a max?

Machka 

Yup. Your digestive system will likely have trouble trying to process any more than that.

Read over some of the articles on nutrition etc. here: https://www.ultracycling.com/siteindex.html

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned this but ... if you eat normally in the week preceding an event, you should have approx. 2000 calories in storage ready to use. On a long distance ride (not a race) you are likely burning about 500-600 calories per hour. Therefore you could conceivably ride for about 4 hours with no food and be fine. (You should, however, drink water if you were to do that).

Because you've got all those calories in storage, you don't need to eat as many calories as you are consuming, and in fact, your stomach will likely hate you if you do. So, if you eat about 500 calories for breakfast before the ride (I usually drink a can of Ensure Plus = 355 calories and then drink a glass of juice = ~150 calories), and then start consuming 300 calories per hour, you will only tap into 200-300 calories per hour of those 2000 calories you've got in storage ... so you could ride quite comfortably for 7-10 hours.

Those 300 calories per hour could consist of solid food or liquid. A bottle of my HEED is around 200-300 calories, so if I consume one bottle of HEED in 2 hours, I've got 150 calories per hour from my HEED alone. The rest I top up with solid food. (And incidentally, one of HEEDs main ingredients is maltodextrin).

I have often suggested that people get a bento bag so they can have their food right in front of them, and so that they can nibble. If you stuff an energy bar in your mouth every hour on the hour in an effort to keep up with the 300 calories per hour, chances are you'll be sick, and you will get sick of the energy bars pretty quick. But if you take a bite of your energy bar ... and then 10 minutes later, take another bite ... and then 10 minutes later take another bite, etc., you'll eat the energy bar over the space of an hour, and your stomach will be much happier only having to deal with little amounts of food.

So, what happens at the 7-10 hour point when your stored calories are gone? At this point, I usually want a meal. Real food ... hamburgers, pizza, chicken croissant sandwiches, scrambled eggs on toast with a side of bacon and hashbrowns. I'll put away 1000+ calories. After I finish eating my real food, for the next hour or so, I ride slowly and easily to allow my stomach time to digest. With a few more stored calories to work with, I continue to consume about 300 calories per hour, and I can last about half the time I did ... so in other words, I want my next real meal in about 4-5 hours.

When the rides start to get long (let's say around the 18 hour mark) I prefer to start drinking a can of Ensure Plus about once an hour. Around that point I start to get sick of eating and I find Ensure Plus easier to digest than real food. However, I don't always have that luxury.

In addition to this I like to consume about one 750 ml bottle of water and/or sports drink every 1 to 1.5 hours. On really hot and windy days I might go through more, but around here that's ample.

And in addition to all that, if the day is at all hot, and I know I'm sweating a lot (my shorts turn white), I have an electrolyte pill I take about once an hour. On both my 400K and 600K brevets this year I was experiencing a hint of nausea, then took an electrolyte pill, and very shortly after the nausea went away.

-----

You mention that you stop eating your energy bars after 3 hours. I'm curious why you would do that. Then you say you experience a huge drop in energy at about 5 hours. If all you've consumed in the 2 hours after you stopped eating your energy bars is your energy drink, that would make sense. Have you tried continuing to eat your energy bars all the way through the ride?

I know eating one type of energy bar can get pretty old after a while ... try a variety! Go for some actual energy bars, some cereal bars, some granola bars, a banana, some dried apricots, a little bag of salted almonds, and an oatmeal raisin cookie or two.

-----
As for maltodextrin, you can buy small quantities of it at your local wine making shop. I can get a cup of maltodextrin powder for $1.

-----

Scummer

This is what I used for endurance riding when I lived in Euope:
https://www.germandeli.com/traubenzucker.html

Includes maltodextrin.

Thomas

Six jours

I think too much can be made of on-bike nutrition. The demarcator may be the use of the term "fueling": my experience has been that the folks who just eat tend to have fewer problems than the folks who "fuel". That may just be my cynical side coming out, though.

But in the tradition of a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, Richard Cranium has said something important: Try some real food. A solid breakfast containing carbs and protein (the classic road racing breakfast of rare steak and rice really does work for long days, if eaten a couple of hours before the start) and then small, regular meals of whatever tastes good on the bike. It really isn't as difficult as we sometimes make it out to be, IMO.