Another reckless driving case
#101
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OTOH if the shoulder isn't rideable it's much harder to find a fair and reasonable compromise.
I've ridden just about every kind of road, both legally and illegally. To me it's not about the law or rights to the road per se, but what the road means --- the ability to get from one place to another. I'm all for the cyclist here if riding the lane is her only reasonable option. OTOH- If the shoulder is decent, and the cyclist is riding in the lane on principle, she has no sympathy form me.
I've used the word reasonable often in this post, and leave it to the judge to decide what and who is reasonable.
Fortunately, this kind of case is narrowly based and doesn't create a precedent that other courts and jurisdictions will follow. What would be sad and harmful to many others would be for this case to be a basis for denying cyclists the right to tide that road entirely (including the shoulder). If I lived there, and rode that shoulder, I'd be asking to speak at that hearing to ensure that that doesn't happen.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#102
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Like many cases of conflicting interests this one may not turn on the law as much as on what's reasonable (this is why we have judges). For example, the obligation for slow vehicles to pull over and run on the shoulder and allow passing is usually only on 2 lane (total) roads, or where there's specific signage) This is a 4 lane road, so there's a passing lane available.
Reasonableness often means doing what one can to minimize impact on others. It's a question of balance. I don't think there are reasonable alternatives to this road (based on maps and other posts here), but if the shoulder is mostly decently paved (doesn't have to be perfect) that's a very reasonable alternative, and if the cyclist refuses to use it, I could see a judge saying, shoulder or other road.
Sometimes deals can be struck that are win/win, for example the county agreeing to keep the shoulder clean with a mechanical sweeper one a week or so, with the condition that cyclists use it. Long term, some improvements, in pavement, and signage at intersections would make everybody safer and happier.
Reasonableness often means doing what one can to minimize impact on others. It's a question of balance. I don't think there are reasonable alternatives to this road (based on maps and other posts here), but if the shoulder is mostly decently paved (doesn't have to be perfect) that's a very reasonable alternative, and if the cyclist refuses to use it, I could see a judge saying, shoulder or other road.
Sometimes deals can be struck that are win/win, for example the county agreeing to keep the shoulder clean with a mechanical sweeper one a week or so, with the condition that cyclists use it. Long term, some improvements, in pavement, and signage at intersections would make everybody safer and happier.
Last edited by trailmix; 05-02-14 at 10:49 AM.
#103
Senior Member
I can never understand it when some cyclists on B.F.'s claim that they will obey the law at all costs. I absolutely agree that it's best to obey the law in most cases; however, in some cases wisdom trumps the law. You, may be bending the rules a bit but you aren't the one facing court trials and fines. According to your testimony and the pictures shown on the news I have to think the riding the shoulder is the best option for the road in question.
#104
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Yes, I said so in the post you quoted (though I said it was third hand). As I said, this case turns on the reasonableness of the shoulder as an alernative, and if it's borderline, on what the city or county can and will do to make it rideable.
This is a bad case, let's hope it doesn't result in bad law.
This is a bad case, let's hope it doesn't result in bad law.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#105
Senior Member
Sorry, reading comprehension error on my part. I thought you were saying there are good alternate routes. I'll go away now, my apologies.
Last edited by trailmix; 05-02-14 at 11:09 AM.
#106
Senior Member
Yes, I said so in the post you quoted (though I said it was third hand). As I said, this case turns on the reasonableness of the shoulder as an alernative, and if it's borderline, on what the city or county can and will do to make it rideable.
This is a bad case, let's hope it doesn't result in bad law.
This is a bad case, let's hope it doesn't result in bad law.
#107
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So, as I've said a few times, it's a question of whether the shoulder is OK, which at least one local who rides it daily says it is. As for the last mile in question, the ruling could be that she can ride the lane there.
I don't know the laws in that state, but it could happen that a pro cyclist ruling could result in the state's department of highways declaring that cyclists are banned from the entire highway. So a short term victory for the "rights" on one cyclist could result in a long term loss for all cyclists.
BTW- in many ways judges are like cats and shouldn't be cornered and forced to issue rulings. Often a judge will try to work out a compromise acceptable to both parties, but if cornered will rule against the one forcing the issue.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 05-02-14 at 11:07 AM.
#108
Senior Member
Why do you keep telling ME? Tell it to the judge. I've already said that there seem to be no reasonable alternative routes, (I'm sure there are others that may be unreasonably longer).
So, as I've said a few times, it's a question of whether the shoulder is OK, which at least one local who rides it daily says it is. As for the last mile in question, the ruling could be that she can ride the lane there.
I don't know the laws in that state, but it could happen that a pro cyclist ruling could result in the state's department of highways declaring that cyclists are banned from the entire highway. So a short term victory for the "rights" on one cyclist could result in a long term loss for all cyclists.
BTW- in many ways judges are like cats and shouldn't be cornered and forced to issue rulings. Often a judge will try to work out a compromise acceptable to both parties, but if cornered will rule against the one forcing the issue.
So, as I've said a few times, it's a question of whether the shoulder is OK, which at least one local who rides it daily says it is. As for the last mile in question, the ruling could be that she can ride the lane there.
I don't know the laws in that state, but it could happen that a pro cyclist ruling could result in the state's department of highways declaring that cyclists are banned from the entire highway. So a short term victory for the "rights" on one cyclist could result in a long term loss for all cyclists.
BTW- in many ways judges are like cats and shouldn't be cornered and forced to issue rulings. Often a judge will try to work out a compromise acceptable to both parties, but if cornered will rule against the one forcing the issue.
#109
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FBinNY hit the nail on the head.
The question in this case is if a 55 mph highway lane is an appropriate place to ride a bicycle, and IMO it isn't.
The question in this case is if a 55 mph highway lane is an appropriate place to ride a bicycle, and IMO it isn't.
#110
Cycle Year Round
Sometimes deals can be struck that are win/win, for example the county agreeing to keep the shoulder clean with a mechanical sweeper one a week or so, with the condition that cyclists use it. Long term, some improvements, in pavement, and signage at intersections would make everybody safer and happier.
So such a solution to banning legal riding by cyclist would also require law changes exempting cyclist from following the law.
Judges are not suppose to ignore law either when coming up with solutions.
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#111
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If it was me on that road, I'd probably be riding the shoulder. I'd ride as far right as practicable.
I'm not about to assume what this particular rider thinks is practicable. Because if I did, I'd be no different than anyone else who thought she should be riding as far right as practical or possible...
I'm not about to assume what this particular rider thinks is practicable. Because if I did, I'd be no different than anyone else who thought she should be riding as far right as practical or possible...
#112
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#113
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I don't know the laws in that state, but it could happen that a pro cyclist ruling could result in the state's department of highways declaring that cyclists are banned from the entire highway. So a short term victory for the "rights" on one cyclist could result in a long term loss for all cyclists.
It failed for Blackhawk, CO and helped end up with even more pro cycling laws within the state.
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#114
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#115
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The thing is, this isn't about an outright ban on all roads like Blackhawk was, this is about a specific rider on a specific road who's actions stand out from all other users in a negative manner.
At this point there is no talk about banning or restricting any other cyclists on that road.
At this point there is no talk about banning or restricting any other cyclists on that road.
#116
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The thing is, this isn't about an outright ban on all roads like Blackhawk was, this is about a specific rider on a specific road who's actions stand out from all other users in a negative manner.
At this point there is no talk about banning or restricting any other cyclists on that road.
At this point there is no talk about banning or restricting any other cyclists on that road.
What seems to make a difference to you, is even though she is riding legally, she rides different than you would, so by you she should be banned. It will really suck for you some day when you find yourself on the flip side.
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Last edited by CB HI; 05-02-14 at 03:04 PM.
#117
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Blackhawk was about one specific road, the main road running through town. Blackhawk tried to target only out of town folk.
What seems to make a difference to you, is even though she is riding legally, she rides different than you would, so by you she should be banned. It will really suck for you some day when you find yourself on the flip side.
What seems to make a difference to you, is even though she is riding legally, she rides different than you would, so by you she should be banned. It will really suck for you some day when you find yourself on the flip side.
I also don't think she should be banned from the road because she rides it differently than I would, but she should be held accountable for her decision to ride it in a way that causes unreasonable and unnecessary disruption unlike any other cyclists.
#118
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A claimed distinction without a difference. Pretty much, just double talk.
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#119
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When I have a question on how to bicycle from point A to B and survive, I refer to the web site - bicycle safe (.com). It does not focus on laws but simply how not to get hit by a car. The explanation about invisibility covers what is being discussed in this forum thread very well. I re-read the site often to clear up the gray areas of riding/commuting and how to deal with them.
#120
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Legal issue aside what she is doing is putting her life in danger on a daily basis.
#121
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I wondered the same thing. But at the same time, the claim to her slowing down traffic is petty and bogus. She is only in one lane, not two. Also, She is not stopping people from passing her.
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If it was me on that road, I'd probably be riding the shoulder. I'd ride as far right as practicable.
I'm not about to assume what this particular rider thinks is practicable. Because if I did, I'd be no different than anyone else who thought she should be riding as far right as practical or possible...
I'm not about to assume what this particular rider thinks is practicable. Because if I did, I'd be no different than anyone else who thought she should be riding as far right as practical or possible...
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The fact of her riding on a 55mph road, in respect to danger, is moot. The only element of concern is, if the state has a max, of what roads with particular speed limits, a cyclist cannot go on. For instance, in Maryland, a cyclist cannot go on roads that have a speed limit above 50mph.
#124
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If this is like most roads I'm sure there are many locals that think the cars move too fast on this road. I'm also sure the police spend plenty of time writing tickets for speeding. It's funny how it doesn't work both ways. Or should that be funny how it does work both ways??
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The fact of her riding on a 55mph road, in respect to danger, is moot. The only element of concern is, if the state has a max, of what roads with particular speed limits, a cyclist cannot go on. For instance, in Maryland, a cyclist cannot go on roads that have a speed limit above 50mph.