High Flange Hub Failure
01-17-06, 11:54 AM
#26
meet the mets
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bucktown, Chicago
Posts: 1,555
Bikes: Raleigh conversion (hours spent making it look like a Pista); Porter Track, Samson Track, Leto Roadie.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Suntour Superbe hubs came radially laced on the stock wheels of Cannondale track bikes back in the bad old days. I would assume an implicit endorsement there.
01-17-06, 01:47 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
i have some suntours laced radialy and some shimanos laced radial up front too. it's never a problem if you know how to do it right. people often over stress the spokes, they tighten them too much and they either brake or mess up the flange. people also do the mistake of lacing radial hubs with straight gauge spokes. i always use double butted spokes. straight gauge almost attack the hub, double butted spokes take most of the impact before the hub does. radial laced hubs should also be laced heads out, that doesn't seem to be a problem on this hub though.
PS tightening the nipples too much adds stress to the hub AND the rim, if you don't have eyelets cracks can form around the holes of the rim and the hub would also maybe break.
PS tightening the nipples too much adds stress to the hub AND the rim, if you don't have eyelets cracks can form around the holes of the rim and the hub would also maybe break.
01-17-06, 01:51 PM
#28
likes avocadoes
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: oakland, ca
Posts: 1,125
Bikes: heh, like that info would fit here...
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Lunigma
i have some suntours laced radialy and some shimanos laced radial up front too. it's never a problem if you know how to do it right. people often over stress the spokes, they tighten them too much and they either brake or mess up the flange. people also do the mistake of lacing radial hubs with straight gauge spokes. i always use double butted spokes. straight gauge almost attack the hub, double butted spokes take most of the impact before the hub does. radial laced hubs should also be laced heads out, that doesn't seem to be a problem on this hub though
The mechanical advantage generally listed for radial lacing is stiffness. Straight gauge spokes share this benefit. If you must use butted spokes to make radial lacing work, it seems like a waste of money (at best) when you could just use HF hubs and straight gauge spokes for an even stiffer wheel.
01-17-06, 02:50 PM
#30
jack of one or two trades
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Suburbia, CT
Posts: 5,640
Bikes: Old-ass gearie hardtail MTB, fix-converted Centurion LeMans commuter, SS hardtail monster MTB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jose R
Radial does build a stiffer wheel, but not necessarily a stronger wheel than a three crossed wheel. In a cross laced design the load is distributed over all the spokes, thereby relieving pressure on the hub and bearings.
In a radial laced wheel, the load is placed solely on the hub. So, not only does your hub flange need to be beefier, but so does your bearings housing design.
In a radial laced wheel, the load is placed solely on the hub. So, not only does your hub flange need to be beefier, but so does your bearings housing design.
The difference is in how this force is transferred to the hub. Radially, each spoke is pulling out perpendicularly to the hub. The more spoke displacement (2x has less than 3x, and so forth) the more tangentially to the hub the force is applied. Since tangentially, there is more material holding the spoke in place, it will tend to not break. However, this does increase the length of the spokes, thus giving you a less stiff wheel.
01-17-06, 03:42 PM
#31
downtube shifter
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
The difference is in how this force is transferred to the hub.
01-17-06, 05:41 PM
#33
Patrick Barber
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
so...not to hijack this thread (instead, think of it as sparing you another one), but would it thus be a dumb idea to lace my low-flange front Phil hub radially?
01-17-06, 05:52 PM
#34
Back to being a Clyde....
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Santa Clara
Posts: 1,544
Bikes: Giant OCR1(specialized carbon seatpost,Terry Fly sadle, Syntace C2): Leader TT frame, Easton EC70fork, Aerolite bars, nashbar bullhorn, Titan Wheels: Fuji Track Pro(2003)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by xthugmurderx
solution! don't get cut out hubs.
01-17-06, 07:01 PM
#35
Yay!11! I has!!!1
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 1,659
Bikes: Cocaine the white stallion, Custom Witcomb pista, (Being restored) 80's Pogliaghi Track, (destroyed) RAP Round Breeze NJS, Cannondale Jekyll 900, 84/5 Pinarello Montello (all italian)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
__________________
Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...
Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...
01-17-06, 07:05 PM
#36
live free or die trying
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: where i lay my head is home.
Posts: 6,999
Bikes: bianchi pista workhorse, cannondale r1000, mountain bike fixed conversion
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by weed eater
so...not to hijack this thread (instead, think of it as sparing you another one), but would it thus be a dumb idea to lace my low-flange front Phil hub radially?
01-17-06, 07:10 PM
#37
romper
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SF Ca.
Posts: 154
Bikes: surly steamroller w/ phil woods to velocity deep v's. sugino, nitto, etc. boom shaka laka
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
phil wood it and forget it. you break a phil wood and your a beast.
01-17-06, 07:15 PM
#38
troglodyte
Originally Posted by ImOnCrank
ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
Never tried crows foot (yet)
01-17-06, 07:31 PM
#39
artistic tricyclist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fredericton, Canada
Posts: 316
Bikes: 2k3 Norco CRD3, 2k2 Kona Stinky, 2k1 Devinci Cactus, 1984 Norco Eliminator Mk.II, 1973 CCM Mistral, 1980s Peugot Sport SL TT, 2k1 Giant XTC NRS1, 2k Norco VPS Drop, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
my rear wheel, matching hub, is 3L/3T....works well, if been riding it hard all summer and only had to true much after a nasty double pothole hit....looks sweet too
01-17-06, 11:44 PM
#41
Iguana Subsystem
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: san francisco
Posts: 4,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ImOnCrank
ok highjack #2. So radial seems to be out for my next 36h HF build but what about crows foot or 3 leading/3 trailing? Any suggestions?
01-18-06, 01:21 AM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by r-dub
The mechanical advantage generally listed for radial lacing is stiffness. Straight gauge spokes share this benefit. If you must use butted spokes to make radial lacing work, it seems like a waste of money (at best) when you could just use HF hubs and straight gauge spokes for an even stiffer wheel.
it is not a waste of money, i personaly think radial lacing is for aesthetics. I hope sheldon doesn't mind me quoting his site:
"I would advise avoiding using thick spokes and very high tension. Since front wheels are generally pretty trouble-free compared with rears, you don't need super-high tension on a front wheel that uses a reasonable number of spokes." - Sheldon Brown
"any torque applied at the hub of a radial spoked wheel will result in a very great increase in spoke tension, almost certainly causing hub or spoke failure." - Sheldon Brown
"If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange." -Sheldon brown
01-18-06, 01:27 AM
#43
Cornucopia of Awesomeness
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: not where i used to be
Posts: 4,847
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lunigma
"If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange." -Sheldon brown
01-18-06, 01:49 AM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 521
Bikes: Wabi Lightning, fixed 13.6 pounds. Cera steel road bike Campy veloce 9s
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by ryan_c
3L/3T is very strong (provided you interlace the spokes as well), and not hard to lace. I would recommend it to anyone who has built a wheel before. I can't imagine it would be any more than a marginal strength difference from 3x, since all the angles are the same. My 3L/3T is holding up great on a coaster-brake 700c rear wheel, so its no stranger to a little bit of stress.
Never tried crows foot (yet)
Never tried crows foot (yet)
Check out my post on 3l3t on teh mechanics forum:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ading+trailing
I've since relaced the wheel 3 cross, which returned the hubs to true, but I can't be sure the flanges aren't weakened because of the 3l3t pattern.
Has anyone built 3l3t without interlacing the spokes? I would build a wheel again with this pattern `for looks, but only if it doesn't cause this insane hub wobble.
01-18-06, 04:29 AM
#45
LF for the accentdeprived
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 3,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You sort of overlaced those spokes, it seems to me. People don't force spokes across on each other that close to the hub.
Quoting dbg from the mecs forum: "fad lacings are for tennis shoes of 12 yo girls"
Quoting dbg from the mecs forum: "fad lacings are for tennis shoes of 12 yo girls"
01-18-06, 11:16 AM
#46
Gone, but not forgotten
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Newtonville, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,301
Bikes: See: https://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Originally Posted by visitordesign
haha. did you read this?
Sheldon "Positronic Brain" Brown
Code:
+---------------------------------------------------+ | There are many humorous things in the world; | | among them the white man's notion that he is | | less savage than the other savages.--Mark Twain | +---------------------------------------------------+
01-18-06, 11:22 AM
#47
Doortrapper
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dolface
doesn't the crows-foot have a radial spoke in every set of 3 spokes?
01-18-06, 05:56 PM
#48
Yay!11! I has!!!1
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 1,659
Bikes: Cocaine the white stallion, Custom Witcomb pista, (Being restored) 80's Pogliaghi Track, (destroyed) RAP Round Breeze NJS, Cannondale Jekyll 900, 84/5 Pinarello Montello (all italian)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oh man got my hubs today. 36h HF NJS D/A HB-7600's (you all know those acronyms what that means which is just sad... I'm even sadder for using them...) I am so firm to lace these f*ckers. Damn you mail, why must you take so long with the rims!
__________________
Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...
Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...
01-18-06, 06:11 PM
#49
keep it pretend
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
Pretty cute, but you really should put the text in a <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>to create a bit of a margin for improved readability (and verisimilitude.)
Sheldon "Positronic Brain" Brown
Sheldon "Positronic Brain" Brown
i love a man with a sense of humor.