fischer, max

I recently was gifted a very minimally ridden Guerciotti track bike that I've started to build up, but I ran into a real snag today with the bottom bracket. I had ordered a new Record Pista crankset/bottom bracket, but when I put the crank arms on, the spindle was nowhere near long enough, and the non-driveside crank was actually hitting the chainstay. The spindle length is 111mm, but it looks like it'd need to be at least 117 to get the crank arms spinning freely.

I think the problem is that the chainstays are huge. Way bigger than I've ever seen on an old track frame like this. Have any of you run into this problem before?

TejanoTrackie 

What is the frame's bottom bracket width ? Italian BB's of that era are normally 70mm wide, whereas most frames today are 68mm.

fischer, max

I don't have a ton of experience dealing with bottom brackets, so I might ask a few dopey questions, but aren't all Italian-threaded bottom brackets 70mm? The BB shell and BB I have are both definitely Italian-threaded, the Campy BB is definitely 70mm and it fits the frame just right, so is it fair to assume the frame's BB shell is 70mm too?

I left the frame at my LBS this evening so I can't measure it at the moment.

TejanoTrackie 

Well, in that case the only possibility would be a mismatch of the crankset and the bottom bracket spindle. How long are the crank arms ?

fischer, max

They're 165mm crank arms. I measured the spindle length earlier, and it's 111mm, and this stuff is all from the same (current) Campy Pista group.

Scrodzilla

Get the Italian-threaded version of this.

fischer, max

Doesn't that have the exact same 111mm spindle length as what I already have?

TejanoTrackie 

Well, sorry, but I don't have any idea why it won't work. Certainly, it's not the cranks being too long. It seems like you've spec'd it out correctly. Maybe, you can get some help on the frame in the C&V forum.

fischer, max

No problem, thanks for trying to help. I really think the cranks/bb would be 100% fine if not for the giantass chainstays.

Scrodzilla

Apologies, I misread your original post.

The crankset you have calls for a 111mm spindle for a proper chain line. Adding 6mm to that for clearance sake may not be the right thing to do.

fischer, max

Hm. Well, does any alternative solution jump to mind? I mean, the bike has been built and ridden in the past, so something must work, right?

hueyhoolihan

standards as far as spyder dishing are concerned are rarely discussed, probably because they seldom rear their ugly heads. this may be one of those rare cases when looking a gift(ed) horse in the mouth may have been worth the trouble.

cranks designed for MTBs, with their wide chainstays designed for wide tires, have a lot of sypder dishing and many road crank arms simply will not clear an MTB's chainstays unless a wider BB is used. same holds true between road and track frames and cranks.

but it seems in your case, if i understand your problem, that a modern track crank is not clearing the chainstays on your vintage track frame, which is unusual. you might try a road crank if you have one around, just to see how to approach this problem. of course the simple answer is to put on a wider BB, but aesthetic issues aside, chainline could be seriously compromised. it's also possible, but unlikely, that the frame is not really a track frame but a road frame with track ends.

in any case if you find a crank that works, you may then be looking at chain-line problems.

the advice to post something in C&V may prove fruitful.

it should also be noted that many vintage BB's were asymmetrical as regards bearing to end of spindle distance, but before i invested in anything i would want to find out exactly what i needed to clear both the right and left chainstays AND get a decent chainline.

this is one of those rare occasions where i might seek out the knowledge of some old grizzled PITA bike mechanic that is still living in the past. and loving it.

BTW, if you don't have the largest chainring that you will ever want to use on that frame, ON the crank while you are trying to solve this problem, you may find that even if you solve the clearance issue with the crankarm you may have the same problem with the chainring. i learned this the hard way, but i don't want to talk about it...

FakeFuji

Pictures might help, and at the very least be bike pron

stilltooslow

You talkin' about me??! Well, at least I'm not 'grizzled'……..yet!

Anyway, the idea of trying to find an older road spindle with extended length on the drive side is a decent suggestion, but of course you'd have to make sure that it was 70mm Italian and tapered for your crank. I have quite a few old 68mm road spindles like that, some of which are Campy, but you can easily find those spindles in 70mm on Ebay in 1mm increments from 111mm on up.

Scrodzilla

Contact this guy and ask him what he used.

Also FWIW, those chainstays don't look particularly "huge" to me.

jpsawyer

I have an '85 Guerciotti Pista with this exact setup and had no issues. The clearance is definitely tighter on this frame than others that I have seen with this setup, but I have had no issues.
Could it be that the BB is installed backwards? Since it is Italian threading both sides are are right hand threaded. And if I remember correctly, the Pista BB is assymetrical so I believe one side of the spindle sticks out more than the other which could be why only the NDS crank arm is hitting.

hueyhoolihan

sounds promising...

fischer, max

I left it at my shop yesterday, so I've only got a handful of phone pictures to show the chainstay size. They're definitely bigger than the ones on that red Guerciotti though.

fischer, max

Eeesh, that does sound promising. I will check this first thing on Monday. Embarrassing though that'd be, I'd be ecstatic if it was such a simple fix.

TejanoTrackie 

Is this the BB you are using ? If so, I don't see how you could install it backwards, and even so it is symmetric.

CAMPAGNOLO PISTA BOTTOM BRACKET

jpsawyer

According to the Campagnolo site it is asymmetrical. Although it looks like different sites have it listed equally as symmetrical and asymmetrical. So who knows?
RECORD™ PISTA™ bottom bracket - Campagnolo - The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling

fischer, max

That's the English-threaded one, so not quite the same. I have the Italian-threaded one, which goes in clockwise on both sides, and according to Campagnolo it's asymmetrical.

TejanoTrackie 

Thing is, unless you installed it with the flanged fixed cup on the NDS (left side), you didn't install it backwards.

fischer, max

Right. I was just saying an English-threaded BB couldn't be installed backwards, but an Italian-threaded one could. I don't think I put it in backwards, but it's worth checking.

bro

i hope its just backwards! thatd be a relief. i was thinking earlier if you have an old vintage crankset and the square taper hole is all blown out from being taken on and off a lot that could be why but i didnt read the -whole- thread so idk