toe clips/toe straps
02-27-15, 01:33 PM
#27
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this is absolutely true, and a very good point. but being that an overwhelming majority of people riding toe clips are using sneakers, that is what i'm comparing. slotted aluminum cycling cleats are an outlier, if you do bring them into the equation then in terms of power transfer you could call a toe clip system equal to clipless. but this still doesn't account for weight savings and convenience of purchasing and setting up the two.
confidence isn't a tangible scientific comparison but it does yield real world results which, in the end, are what matters. and by your definition a stiffer bb cluster wouldn't result in a performance boost. so let's get over the silly nuance in language use and talk about the actual real world differences between these two systems.
confidence isn't a tangible scientific comparison but it does yield real world results which, in the end, are what matters. and by your definition a stiffer bb cluster wouldn't result in a performance boost. so let's get over the silly nuance in language use and talk about the actual real world differences between these two systems.
Last edited by sickz; 02-27-15 at 01:36 PM.
02-27-15, 02:38 PM
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02-27-15, 03:18 PM
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@franswa good job opening the door of suck on only the third post. Does "superior" straps need to be mentioned in a "clip color" thread, especially when the op'er has been on the forum for four years?
02-27-15, 03:46 PM
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@franswa good job opening the door of suck on only the third post. Does "superior" straps need to be mentioned in a "clip color" thread, especially when the op'er has been on the forum for four years?
Never mind the complete thread derailment of the discussion of toe clips vs. clipless.
02-27-15, 03:58 PM
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an exaggerated example of non clipless pedals would be riding with soles an 1" thick. tracing the new path of foot contact along a complete crank revolution results in an oval. top dead center, contact is 1" above (normal for comparison). same is true for bottom dead center. 180 deg and 0 deg (parallel with ground) contact is still 1" above. thus, our 'circle' our newly created circle is taller than it's width; resulting in an ellipse.
the path of the truest circle your cranks would trace is the center of the threaded hole for the pedal, consequently the same point which determines crank length. center of the tapped hole to the center of the square taper (center to center) would yield your typical 170-175mm measurements.
for our foot to follow the tru circle, point of contact would have to be made at the center of the tapped hole, along the pedal. this point is usually taken up by the axle of the pedal, which the pedal body spins on (via bearings). using a 9/16" bolt in place of a pedal helps to better visualize the engineering challenge of strength vs performance.
i say performance; because the most efficient predetermined point (crank length) for torque application along a moment arm, regardless of angle, exists along a straight line from center of the square taper to the center of pedal mount hole. crank length determines where along the line, the point in question lays.
i now feel baited into a meaningless (to most) explanation. =\ i tried!
the path of the truest circle your cranks would trace is the center of the threaded hole for the pedal, consequently the same point which determines crank length. center of the tapped hole to the center of the square taper (center to center) would yield your typical 170-175mm measurements.
for our foot to follow the tru circle, point of contact would have to be made at the center of the tapped hole, along the pedal. this point is usually taken up by the axle of the pedal, which the pedal body spins on (via bearings). using a 9/16" bolt in place of a pedal helps to better visualize the engineering challenge of strength vs performance.
i say performance; because the most efficient predetermined point (crank length) for torque application along a moment arm, regardless of angle, exists along a straight line from center of the square taper to the center of pedal mount hole. crank length determines where along the line, the point in question lays.
i now feel baited into a meaningless (to most) explanation. =\ i tried!
Last edited by sickz; 02-27-15 at 04:04 PM.
02-27-15, 04:07 PM
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Damn GromCake. You got BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNED......
02-27-15, 04:21 PM
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so essentially being closer to the center of the pedal spindle (as is with clipless systems) would yield more efficient power transfer?
02-27-15, 04:23 PM
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02-27-15, 04:48 PM
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03-01-15, 03:56 PM
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an exaggerated example of non clipless pedals would be riding with soles an 1" thick. tracing the new path of foot contact along a complete crank revolution results in an oval. top dead center, contact is 1" above (normal for comparison). same is true for bottom dead center. 180 deg and 0 deg (parallel with ground) contact is still 1" above. thus, our 'circle' our newly created circle is taller than it's width; resulting in an ellipse.
the path of the truest circle your cranks would trace is the center of the threaded hole for the pedal, consequently the same point which determines crank length. center of the tapped hole to the center of the square taper (center to center) would yield your typical 170-175mm measurements.
for our foot to follow the tru circle, point of contact would have to be made at the center of the tapped hole, along the pedal. this point is usually taken up by the axle of the pedal, which the pedal body spins on (via bearings). using a 9/16" bolt in place of a pedal helps to better visualize the engineering challenge of strength vs performance.
i say performance; because the most efficient predetermined point (crank length) for torque application along a moment arm, regardless of angle, exists along a straight line from center of the square taper to the center of pedal mount hole. crank length determines where along the line, the point in question lays.
i now feel baited into a meaningless (to most) explanation. =\ i tried!
the path of the truest circle your cranks would trace is the center of the threaded hole for the pedal, consequently the same point which determines crank length. center of the tapped hole to the center of the square taper (center to center) would yield your typical 170-175mm measurements.
for our foot to follow the tru circle, point of contact would have to be made at the center of the tapped hole, along the pedal. this point is usually taken up by the axle of the pedal, which the pedal body spins on (via bearings). using a 9/16" bolt in place of a pedal helps to better visualize the engineering challenge of strength vs performance.
i say performance; because the most efficient predetermined point (crank length) for torque application along a moment arm, regardless of angle, exists along a straight line from center of the square taper to the center of pedal mount hole. crank length determines where along the line, the point in question lays.
i now feel baited into a meaningless (to most) explanation. =\ i tried!
That perfect "torque line"? First, torque is force exerted at right angles to a lever arm from the pivot (BB axle). So, at the 90 adn 270 degree crank positions, ie level cranks, that force is vertical. The lever arm has not changed at all. Put a 12" sole on that shoe, and it still doesn't change. Where it does change is when the cranks are vertical. Then we subtract torque at the bottom of the stroke and add torque at the top. Net change will be very little unless that rider exerts a lot more or less push at the top and pull at the bottom of the stroke.
Shoe height above pedal does have some real world differences in races. Drafting and wind resistance is helped by lower shoe settings. Cornering speed while pedaling can be reduced by lower pedals because of pedal strike. Gonna be in a break all day with shorter guys? Get those shoes down! There's an "S" turn 150 meters before the line? Get those shoes and pedal edges up! Going touring, RAM, double centuries, etc. Get pedal/cleats that work for your riding style and knees.
Ben
03-01-15, 04:13 PM
#42
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Huh? You have just moved the entire circle up 1". It's still a circle. Raise the seat and HBs 1" and nothing has changed except a little wind resistance and a raise in center of gravity. And, do our feet really care if the circle is perfect or not? If fact, it would surprise me if there isn't an ellipse out there that isn't a little more effective. (I'll leave it to someone else to spend their years and other's money doing a PhD on that.)
That perfect "torque line"? First, torque is force exerted at right angles to a lever arm from the pivot (BB axle). So, at the 90 adn 270 degree crank positions, ie level cranks, that force is vertical. The lever arm has not changed at all. Put a 12" sole on that shoe, and it still doesn't change. Where it does change is when the cranks are vertical. Then we subtract torque at the bottom of the stroke and add torque at the top. Net change will be very little unless that rider exerts a lot more or less push at the top and pull at the bottom of the stroke.
Shoe height above pedal does have some real world differences in races. Drafting and wind resistance is helped by lower shoe settings. Cornering speed while pedaling can be reduced by lower pedals because of pedal strike. Gonna be in a break all day with shorter guys? Get those shoes down! There's an "S" turn 150 meters before the line? Get those shoes and pedal edges up! Going touring, RAM, double centuries, etc. Get pedal/cleats that work for your riding style and knees.
Ben
That perfect "torque line"? First, torque is force exerted at right angles to a lever arm from the pivot (BB axle). So, at the 90 adn 270 degree crank positions, ie level cranks, that force is vertical. The lever arm has not changed at all. Put a 12" sole on that shoe, and it still doesn't change. Where it does change is when the cranks are vertical. Then we subtract torque at the bottom of the stroke and add torque at the top. Net change will be very little unless that rider exerts a lot more or less push at the top and pull at the bottom of the stroke.
Shoe height above pedal does have some real world differences in races. Drafting and wind resistance is helped by lower shoe settings. Cornering speed while pedaling can be reduced by lower pedals because of pedal strike. Gonna be in a break all day with shorter guys? Get those shoes down! There's an "S" turn 150 meters before the line? Get those shoes and pedal edges up! Going touring, RAM, double centuries, etc. Get pedal/cleats that work for your riding style and knees.
Ben
nice catch though. its been awhile since ive contemplated this problem. next time i should probably verify my claims in cad before writing them in stone.
apologies. no phd here, just some college physics.
Last edited by sickz; 03-01-15 at 05:27 PM.
