falconproject

Hi everyone,

I'm a long time lurker with some questions about my recently purchased
Miyata 610, circa 84.

At the moment it's a basket case, I've got most of the original parts excluding the seat and cranks.

I really want to build it up nicely, phil hubs, brooks, Sugino Alpina cranks.

Can I build up 700's or am I stuck with 27"s?
Anything else I should consider? The paint is shot so I'm gonna get it powdercoated I think.
Should I go with mtb derailliers or road? I want to use bar ends, so I was thinking 105 f and r.

This is a bike I've wanted since I was a kid (early 80's) Thanks for any advice, sorry for the rambling nature of my post.

rothenfield1

First off, congratulations on your find. I think if I was going to completely rebuild a vintage bike, the first question I would consider is how many gears I wanted. Assuming you want more than the 6 it came with, 9 speed would be the modern upgrade. I will make this suggestion, you are going to have specific mechanical questions as you go along, and I’ve found the Bike Mechanics Forum an excellent resource. Good Luck!

falconproject

Good to know thanks.

rothenfield1

Sorry, I just reread my post and it seemed pretty lame. I related to your thread. I rebuilt an 85 Specialized Expedition and sold it. Regretted it, and just finished rebuilding an 89 Miyata 1000. I had lots of questions and BF was indispensable. When I saw your thread, I started to respond with a long detailed answer, then thought better of it. I'm pretty sure the 700 will work fine. You'll have to adjust your brakes if you use the originals. But, that's not the main concern. Your bike came with a 6spd with a 126mm rear triangle spread. Modern hubs are 130 which means it will be hard to get the rear wheel on & off but doable. Mountain bike Shimano XT 9spd drivetrain is what you'll find on some of the better touring bikes nowadays. But nothing wrong with 105. You'll need to get a new BB because the wider hubs and cassette will widen the chainline. See, this is why I didn't want to go down this road. You have a nice frame and it will make an excellent touring bike

elpy zee

I had no trouble putting 700c wheels on my Miyata 610, either with the brakes fitting or with the wider hub on the rear wheel. Also wound up replacing the cup and cone bottom bracket with a sealed BB, when I couldn't find a replacement axle for the old one. I used a pretty wide BB when I was using the original crank, but when I replaced the crank with something newer I got one of the recommended BB widths for that crank.
An ongoing problem I'm having with this bike, and other old bikes, is the location of the brake studs on the frame. Specs for this have changed over time, and new canti brakes just don't fit. I'm about ready to take the bike to a frame builder and have the studs repositioned.

falconproject

were the canti studs too thick or too long? I really was wanting to put some trp's on
i'll also have a local framebuilder respace the rear end to accommodate 130 mm axel. Thanks everyone.

cyccommute 

The diameter of the studs are the same as they've always been. elpy zee is probably talking about positioning of the studs which is a result of the 700C/27" issue. All you need is a brake caliper with long enough slots to adjust the height of the brake pads. Some newer brakes don't have a lot of room for adjustment.

The 610 has a 126mm wide rear drop out. You can spring the rear triangle out the 4mm so that it will fit a 130mm hub. No frame work is really needed. If you wanted to go to a 135mm rear, you'd have to have it cold set but I wouldn't worry about it for 4 mm. There's plenty of flex.

As for modern parts, most everything still has the same threads and fits the same way. You could even use an external bearing bottom bracket. I'd even suggest you do. The Shimano Hollowtech cranks are dead simple to work on. Whatever you settle on for a crank, don't go back to the cup and cone BB. Seal units are more robust, require zero maintenance and are dirt cheap. I'd even go to a threadless adapter (it's difficult to find a 1" threadless touring fork) and a threadless stem. A bit heavier but it's torsionally stiffer. Paul's touring canti's are the bomb and would go well with the Phil Wood hubs.

mrhedges

another suggestion...check out C&V forum, either by posting there or doing a search, alot of people have upgraded there vintage bicycles for varies reasons and theres alot of info on older bicycle there plus plenty of geeks that get off on seeing you rebuild some older bicycle.

barends are awesome! i love mine. btw i don't think theres anything wrong with sticking to a 6 speed set up. unless your planning to race its more about range then number of gears.

have fun!

falconproject

I would love to get the pauls cantis, still thinking about it. I was also lookin at the TRP cantis which kinda look like
old Mafac cantis, I just havent seen any photos showing a long enough slot yet.

I really want to keep it looking semi-classic so I might re-use the stem and seatpost.

Thanks guys for the great info. it really helps.

tacomee

There are many styles of cantilever brakes....newer low profile, the old, more open style of the Mafacs, and a bunch of styles in between. Get ones that resemble the stock brakes. Some types don't work so well with some kinds of bikes.

cyccommute 

The original OEM brakes on your era 610 were short arm brakes that were really, really bad. They didn't look anything like traditional Mavics and resembled these



Paul's Neo or Paul's Touring (or IRD Cafams) would all work.

elpy zee

The problem I've had with the canti studs on the 610 and other old bikes has to do with the center to center distance between the two studs, or the distance between the wheel rim and the studs. Older bikes have studs mounted closer together, new bikes have them further apart--I forget the exact distance but it might equal a couple of centimeters. So brakes designed for modern bikes generally don't fit properly, and I know I've had no luck getting some Tektro Oryx's on my 610.

I don't think the problem comes from switching from the 27" rim to 700c; moving the brake pads down in their slots would actually make the problem worse, causing the brake arms to form a more pronounced V shape, rather than lining up parallel to each other and vertical.

The problem with the old brakes that were on the bike when I got it is that they stopped making them, and small parts for them are hard to come by. Not the best situation for a touring bike.

falconproject

Hey guys, thanks for all the info. I'm definitely going to take my time on this build.
I have the original brakes but I really want to try something newer and stronger.

Since the paint is kinda shot, would it be considered total sacrilege to have some
cable guides brazed on for the shifter cables where the old clamp on hanger used
to sit?

cyccommute 

I don't really think that the brake studs on bikes are any wider than they used to be. I'm not sure that there was a standard distance anyway. Mountain bikes have wider forks and are wider between the seatstays than a road bike. There weren't 'mountain bike' or 'road bike' cantis in the past. The difference was in the way that the brake pads are mounted to the caliper. For example this is the more traditional brake pad mount



This is a more modern mount



The Shimano has more adjustment to side to side than the Tektros have. You can adjust the Tektro pads for different frame widths by moving the orbit washers on the pads around. There are 2 sets of orbit washers on the pads and often the orbit washers are of different widths. mix and match as needed to get different distances from the rim. It's a pain but it does work.

The stud type brake pads like on the Shimanos are better for adjusting for different rim and frame widths, however.

FrenchFit 

I have customized, upgraded several bikes. I find over time I tend to return them to oem, or fairly close. Very few of these modifications seem to make that much difference unless you are solving a problem. If geared correctly, anything over 6 or 7 cogs seems more corp. marketing than meat. As for 27 inch wheels, I love them...why switch if they are in good shape? So, I guess I'm saying if you decide to upgrade everything..keep those old parts.

mrhedges

tire selection especially if you leave the united states is very limited. My friend toured europe on a bike with 27 inch wheels and had trouble finding spare tubes.
thats the only reason i can think of.