Ultimate touring gruppo
#151
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You need to shop around a bit more. A year and a half ago I bought a non-disc Rohhloff for 875.86 Euros with shipping and a sprocket removal tool, at the exchange rate at that time I paid roughly $1,150. It also would have been cheaper if I bought silver instead of black, at that time black bumped the price up. I also could have gotten it cheaper if I did not get the EX Box version.
Still scratching my head on why you included the word derailleur with your Rohloff price.
I will enjoy pedaling up the hill while you are stopped in your tracks with your 30t chainring for your lowest gear. My derailleur touring bikes have a 24t chainring. Some on this forum think a 24t is too big.
Or, I will pedal past when you are on the side of the road with a bad bearing with your external bottom bracket while I have my square taper bottom bracket working just fine. I was part of a group tour with a total of 16 riders a couple years ago. Other than flats, there were two mechanical failures. One was an external bottom bracket bearing, the other was a broken spring on a front derailleur. I could temporarily fix the front derailleur with a piece of bunge cord to make it shift getting that rider back on the road, but the external bottom bracket required parts to be overnight shipped to a bike shop.
Still scratching my head on why you included the word derailleur with your Rohloff price.
I will enjoy pedaling up the hill while you are stopped in your tracks with your 30t chainring for your lowest gear. My derailleur touring bikes have a 24t chainring. Some on this forum think a 24t is too big.
Or, I will pedal past when you are on the side of the road with a bad bearing with your external bottom bracket while I have my square taper bottom bracket working just fine. I was part of a group tour with a total of 16 riders a couple years ago. Other than flats, there were two mechanical failures. One was an external bottom bracket bearing, the other was a broken spring on a front derailleur. I could temporarily fix the front derailleur with a piece of bunge cord to make it shift getting that rider back on the road, but the external bottom bracket required parts to be overnight shipped to a bike shop.
I disagree with your dislike of external BBS. The stiffness benefits of the system are drastic (before going to external on my tourer I used nice sealed bearing TA BBS), which is nice on an already flexy steel frame. Maintenance and repair are far easier (I will concede that it needs to be done more often, especially if you're riding in poor or dirty conditions). As long as you stick to shimano or SRAM, fresh bearings are as easy to get as anything (some brands can be tougher to find laying around at just any shop).
#152
Senior Member
When i set up my VO Campeur. I chose SUN XCD front and rear, VO crankset with good gearing range, 11-32 in the back. 30 speed friction bar ends. Works wonderfully for me. I also got a set of VO RAID wheels. They are pretty easy to service also.
#153
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Some older bike shops that have been around for decades have a box or bucket with vintage stuff that you can offer a buck or two to buy something out of it. I have bought some vintage stuff from on line auction sites that is currently in use on my touring bikes.
#154
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N
#155
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I'm pleased with it. It's good quality and I can honestly say from buyer and seller viewpoint that i wouldn't sell or promote something i didn't feel confident in. I can say that their brake pads sucked. I've been using their cranksets, wheels, even the Campeur. I am pleased. Not the lightest of the lightest items but I wasn't too worried about weight.
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My VO Camargue had a modified Sugino wide-low crank from Rivendell (40/26t) with 12-36 9 speed cassette out back. Had Dia-Compe ENE bar end friction shifters, with Shimano M772 rear derailleur. It was awesome on a recent 100 mile bike camping trip on gravel, dirt, pavement. Wish it had more top end speed though, but I love friction shifting, especially for touring.
Currently, undergoing a switch to dirt drop rigid shred sled. Drivetrain is switching to 1x10 (36t wolftooth chainring up front, with 11-36 cassette out back). Also adding 10 speed Microshift bar end shifters. Helps me get similar gearing to what I was running up front, but able to go off-road more.
Currently, undergoing a switch to dirt drop rigid shred sled. Drivetrain is switching to 1x10 (36t wolftooth chainring up front, with 11-36 cassette out back). Also adding 10 speed Microshift bar end shifters. Helps me get similar gearing to what I was running up front, but able to go off-road more.
#157
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I'm pleased with it. It's good quality and I can honestly say from buyer and seller viewpoint that i wouldn't sell or promote something i didn't feel confident in. I can say that their brake pads sucked. I've been using their cranksets, wheels, even the Campeur. I am pleased. Not the lightest of the lightest items but I wasn't too worried about weight.
N
#158
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That said, hydraulics on a touring bike? Also silly. Hydraulics are fantastic... for quick, sharp braking action, not dragging down thousands of feet of descent. You will boil your fluid and wear out your pads (and unless they're Shimano or Avid, good luck getting replacement pads from whatever mom and pop bike shop you happen to stumble across). And very few are compatible with road drop bars. Again, I love hydraulics, but not for touring.
Hydraulics are great on a race course, the self-adjusting ability of the pads means that you have consistent stopping for the entire life of the pad. That's a big deal. That benefit quickly becomes a frustration on a long tour when you get to ride for eight hours a day thinking about how you can't wait to get to a bike shop in order to stop the squeal (only to have the same problem return a day after you left the last bike shop).
One more thing to go out of true. A wheel can be trued on the road with a tool the size of a quarter. Ever true a disc rotor? Also, how many wheels have you needed to replace due to wearing out the rim from braking? Don't get me wrong, I like disc brakes and the reduced rim wear... but you get a lot of life out of a rim with traditional brakes.
Last edited by headloss; 10-24-14 at 01:10 PM.
#159
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In the 70s, most bikes had shifters that were strapped onto the frame, not brazed on. Perhaps you could mix the strap part with the modern day downtube levers if you want indexed. Or just use 70s vintage shift levers if you want friction. The downtubes back then were usually smaller diameter than what is generally offered today for a touring bike, but still you might be able to find one that would fit onto the downtube with a longer bolt?
BTW, I liked the old Cannondale race bike enough that when I left it with my daughter and son in law so I could ride with them when I visit, I built up another almost like it. Funny thing is I may just ride my more modern race type bike instead next tour, low-ish spoke count wheels and all.
#160
Senior Member
Not to mention, hydraulic systems don't like it when you put the bike upside down to do a roadside repair. God forbid that you accidentally bump the brake lever while you are repairing a flat and have to readjust the piston on the side of the road with minimal tools. You don't have the ability to bleed and refill the cylinders/hose on the side of the road if need be. If you lose your brakes, you're done, especially on a long mountainous decent. With mechanical discs, I could make an emergency repair with a guitar string and a pair of vice-grips, if it came down to it.
Hydraulics are great on a race course, the self-adjusting ability of the pads means that you have consistent stopping for the entire life of the pad. That's a big deal. That benefit quickly becomes a frustration on a long tour when you get to ride for eight hours a day thinking about how you can't wait to get to a bike shop in order to stop the squeal (only to have the same problem return a day after you left the last bike shop).
One more thing to go out of true. A wheel can be trued on the road with a tool the size of a quarter. Ever true a disc rotor? Also, how many wheels have you needed to replace due to wearing out the rim from braking? Don't get me wrong, I like disc brakes and the reduced rim wear... but you get a lot of life out of a rim with traditional brakes.
Hydraulics are great on a race course, the self-adjusting ability of the pads means that you have consistent stopping for the entire life of the pad. That's a big deal. That benefit quickly becomes a frustration on a long tour when you get to ride for eight hours a day thinking about how you can't wait to get to a bike shop in order to stop the squeal (only to have the same problem return a day after you left the last bike shop).
One more thing to go out of true. A wheel can be trued on the road with a tool the size of a quarter. Ever true a disc rotor? Also, how many wheels have you needed to replace due to wearing out the rim from braking? Don't get me wrong, I like disc brakes and the reduced rim wear... but you get a lot of life out of a rim with traditional brakes.
Fair point about the pistons, I use a flat head screwdriver and a few minutes of being very patient. Some brakes are easier than others, but have never had much trouble (besides frustration) dealing with it with minimal tools.
#161
Senior Member
The thing is that if (and that is a big if) I were to want to build up a modern bike for my touring style it would likely be carbon fiber and most do not easily take DT shifters. Anyway I am pretty satisfied with either a modern road race bike with brifters or an old road race bike with DT shifter bosses on the frame. If I were going to tour with much over 20 pounds or so I might go back to a "real" touring bike, but these days I generally stay well under 20 pounds even counting food and water.
Yeah, I have done the eBay thing for vintage parts sometimes.
BTW, I liked the old Cannondale race bike enough that when I left it with my daughter and son in law so I could ride with them when I visit, I built up another almost like it. Funny thing is I may just ride my more modern race type bike instead next tour, low-ish spoke count wheels and all.
Yeah, I have done the eBay thing for vintage parts sometimes.
BTW, I liked the old Cannondale race bike enough that when I left it with my daughter and son in law so I could ride with them when I visit, I built up another almost like it. Funny thing is I may just ride my more modern race type bike instead next tour, low-ish spoke count wheels and all.
I've thought about a hybrid build, 'lightweight' steel frame, alum racks, MTB carbon wheelset, 10 sp brifters...a nice combo of touring ruggedness and road bike weight.
#162
Banned
Soooooo...I hadn't intended for this to be a thread to go back and forth about IGH or to explain why we mix and match or to say what parts we currently used. I wanted to as a forum come together and figure out sort of a reality based dream gruppo for touring. What are features we would want if Shimano or SRAM or Campy came to us and said you can have what you want (within the limits of technology and reason). Don't feel as if you are locked into what already exists have some imagination, don't worry about budget or anything like that, none of this is real.
The Rohloff hub has minimum drive ratio requirements , But put it into a 20" wheel and that is super Low ..
making a double chainring kit (chain tensioner for the difference), to increase the Range Upward..
or a Schlumpf Speed Drive crank , with say a 15tcog and the 34t chainring , which functions like a 54t in the 1.65X overdrive range ..
and then you have something to use in a chaincase or those Belt Drive systems..
Now back to the pure dreailleur drive train fan club..
Last edited by fietsbob; 10-24-14 at 01:50 PM.
#163
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Honestly, all parts are on the table for a rider that knows how to do the repairs when necessary. Heat from a long descent can warp a rotor... but a higher end rotor is less likely to warp (as is a bigger rotor), so having the correct equipment for the job would likely prevent this. Of course, bike manufacturers seldom put the right parts on the bike out of the box.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
#164
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Honestly, all parts are on the table for a rider that knows how to do the repairs when necessary. Heat from a long descent can warp a rotor... but a higher end rotor is less likely to warp (as is a bigger rotor), so having the correct equipment for the job would likely prevent this. Of course, bike manufacturers seldom put the right parts on the bike out of the box.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
Disc brakes also allow you to use different wheel size for conversions, which can be nice. Rotors are also cheaper than replacing a wheel.
New disc brakes like the TRP Spyres even out pad wear by having dual calipers, and usually are adjustable from both sides. The Avids don't require any tools to adjust pads. Pretty easy stuff once you get used to it.
#165
Senior Member
Honestly, all parts are on the table for a rider that knows how to do the repairs when necessary. Heat from a long descent can warp a rotor... but a higher end rotor is less likely to warp (as is a bigger rotor), so having the correct equipment for the job would likely prevent this. Of course, bike manufacturers seldom put the right parts on the bike out of the box.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.
I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.
Another positive of using discs is the cross compatibility with MTB equipment. I've gone to discs on my Cross bike for this. In some cases MTB and Touring gear is close enough to warrant the same strategy if you have multiple bikes. A nice heavy duty disc MTB wheelset with a 11-34 cassette can do double duty.
I don't think hydro for Touring makes sense.
#166
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Another positive of using discs is the cross compatibility with MTB equipment. I've gone to discs on my Cross bike for this. In some cases MTB and Touring gear is close enough to warrant the same strategy if you have multiple bikes. A nice heavy duty disc MTB wheelset with a 11-34 cassette can do double duty.
#167
Senior Member
YMMV of course....not trying to hijack thread, just saying that my perfect Gruppo has carbon!
Probably has already been mentioned, I'd probably go tubeless first, and save some weight, or go to really light tubes, go slicks, these are more proven, lower risk ways of dropping wheel weight and rolling resistance.
Probably has already been mentioned, I'd probably go tubeless first, and save some weight, or go to really light tubes, go slicks, these are more proven, lower risk ways of dropping wheel weight and rolling resistance.
#168
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For fux sake, you people are cheap and unimaginative. Surely ya'll can think of things you would want and like in a gruppo? I am not asking to debate which religion is better or who wore it best, I just wanted to come together and be creative. I screwed that one up, I guess. I know we mix and match but what about those parts do we like and what would we change and improve upon and what doesn't exist that maybe should.
It is not marketing it is just talking bike tech because we are on a bike forum so we must like bikes and what goes along with them or what the heck are we doing here? I surely can't be the only gear nerd here who thinks about designing their own gear and what improvements I would make to stuff?
Ah well back to the wood paneled basement to play Dungeons and Dragons, drink store brand cola and listen to Rush (the Rush part is true)
It is not marketing it is just talking bike tech because we are on a bike forum so we must like bikes and what goes along with them or what the heck are we doing here? I surely can't be the only gear nerd here who thinks about designing their own gear and what improvements I would make to stuff?
Ah well back to the wood paneled basement to play Dungeons and Dragons, drink store brand cola and listen to Rush (the Rush part is true)
#171
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What don't you like about Hydros, I am curious as the hydros I have used are FAR superior to any cable braking systems I've used. Better modularity, less maintenance, easier to adjust, more power, the list goes on. The only saving grace I have found with cables is cost and they don't need to be bled. I'm not necessarily and advocate of them for touring, but for everything else....sign me up.
As to power, I can stand any bike I own on it's nose with the any brake system I use or have ever used, with the expection of old Mafic knockoffs from the 80s. "More power" doesn't gain me anything.
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#172
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Can one make an appeal to authority when one uses their own knowledge? If we can't use our own observations, experience and knowledge what can we use?
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#173
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Then you don't know who is.
There exist many bicyclists who do not utilize co-ops. Some people only go to bike shops. Some people do all of their own repairs. Some people only let their friends do their repair work. Co-ps are not going to provide a representative sample.
There exist many bicyclists who do not utilize co-ops. Some people only go to bike shops. Some people do all of their own repairs. Some people only let their friends do their repair work. Co-ps are not going to provide a representative sample.
Maybe they go to another co-op.
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#174
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You really need to find out what a bicycle "co-op" is. My co-op not only "launders" used bikes but we offer a space where people can do their own works with our tools. We have 6 stands and each one is full every Saturday with a line waiting for the stand out the door. We put a limit of 90 minutes on the stands because they are so popular and we still fill them for a typical 6 hour shift. We have a lot of people and a lot of bikes coming through the shop. Not many IGH, however.
Maybe they go to another co-op.
Maybe they go to another co-op.
I use a Rohloff myself. I see a fair number of Alfines on commuters. Obviously Rohloffs aren't common because they're so expensive, and Alfines are still vastly outnumbered by derailleurs, but their popularity seems to be growing. And I saw a singlespeed with a Sturmey Archer fitted in a very high-end "roadie" bike shop in London recently. IGHs are a minority interest, but as far as the UK market is concerned they aren't that unusual a sight.
#175
Banned
My problem is that I fail to see the better "modulation" of any hydraulics.
The one's I've tried don't have any modulation at all but are "digital", i.e. on or off. That is not "modulation" in my book.
The one's I've tried don't have any modulation at all but are "digital", i.e. on or off. That is not "modulation" in my book.