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Ultimate touring gruppo

Old 10-20-14, 07:48 PM
  #1  
veganbikes
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Ultimate touring gruppo

So I had an idea to create the ultimate touring gruppo just for fun. For too long we have mixed and matched parts, and I want something that is Dura-Ace/Red/Super Record quality or better but designed for the wants and needs of touring cyclists. I figure this could be a fun way to pass the time and see what we might come up with.

I do want to keep it somewhat realistic-ish so "a chain that never needs lube and doesn't wear out" wouldn't cut it.
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Old 10-20-14, 08:52 PM
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Rohloff , the already World Touring tested 14 speed Internal Gear Hub, and whatever single chainring crank you choose..

My choice: was a Shimano XT M730 crank. I got in the 90s, a Surly Stainless steel Chainring and a Black anodized disc Chainring guard.

& a Whipperman Full-bushing 3/16" wide Chain.

but the many Popular derailleur index shifting drivetrain people have a different Opinion . Best is just that, .. an opinion.

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-22-14 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 10-20-14, 09:00 PM
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Rohloff or NuVinci, depending on the terrain.
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Old 10-20-14, 09:08 PM
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I'm a strong believer in mid to slightly more than mid level stuff being perfectly fine for touring, but I'd have to say, if money was no object, a Rohlof with one of those full chain guard thingees that keeps all the mud and dirt and crap off your chain and chainrings to keep them in great condition no matter what kind of roads and weather you are in, that would be pretty snazzy to own.
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Old 10-20-14, 09:29 PM
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Depends where you are touring, I have a Bruce Gordon with Campy Chorus friction shifts which I would never tour outside of US or western Europe. Not the biggest fan of Shimano, but friction shift 7 speed Shimano is supported in most parts of the world
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Old 10-20-14, 10:20 PM
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I think there is definitely a point of diminishing returns, especially for touring where durability matters more than lightness...

My ideal build is Chorus11 shifter driving a Shimano XT 9speed RD on DT Swiss 350 hubs laced to TK540 rims. Crank would be a 42t-26t Sugino OX801D with a Shimano CX FD or maybe an IRD Alpina FD. Handlebars would be Salsa Cowbells. Tires would be Schwalbe Marathon something or anothers, probably 35mm or so. Disc brakes, probably TRP Spyres. Saddle is Terry Liberator. Seat post is Thomson. Pedals are Shimano a530. Tubus racks, SKF fenders... hmmm take the hub choice back, I'm going to lace a SON dynamo on the front and a White CX hub on the back for the sake of matching.
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Old 10-21-14, 03:44 AM
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Chorus 8-speed style shifters, with front microshifting, compatible with Shimano 8-speed gears.
Old style XT hubs and cranks.

Everything since 8 speed has been more raceable and less tourable.
I would like to see a shifter with replaceable barrel, so you can alter the cable-pull per click.
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Old 10-21-14, 07:01 AM
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Internal hub gears have two issues; expense and weight. I still like the simplicity and "hackability" of a derailleur system. A contender might be SRAM XX, 42/28 x 11/36 gearing with whatever SRAM gear shift you like.

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/xx

A Shimano Deore set up is hard to beat and you have lots of choice between triple and double cranks, cassettes, hubs etc.

Or you could get silly and go for Shimano XTR Di2

Shimano XTR
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Old 10-21-14, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Rohloff , the already World Touring tested 14 speed Internal Gear Hub, and whatever single chainring crank you choose..

My choice: was a Shimano XT M730 crank. I got in the 90s, a Surly Stainless steel Chainring and a Black anodized disc Chainring guard.

& a Whipperman Full-bushing 3/16" wide Chain.
Originally Posted by djb View Post
I'm a strong believer in mid to slightly more than mid level stuff being perfectly fine for touring, but I'd have to say, if money was no object, a Rohlof with one of those full chain guard thingees that keeps all the mud and dirt and crap off your chain and chainrings to keep them in great condition no matter what kind of roads and weather you are in, that would be pretty snazzy to own.
I think any 5 arm compact crank with square taper would be adequate on a Rohloff bike. I use a Vuelta double crank with my Rohloff. Less than $30, but still good enough. My chainring is a generic that was $9 and I have a bashguard on mine, I see no reason for a fully enclosed chain case. But some would want a stainless chainring, does Surly make one?

I have the 36h version of the Rohloff.

Front hub, you want a good dynohub. The Son is the standard, but I went with the SP Dynamo to reduce cost.

Rims, there is a lot of controversy, I won't weigh in on that. Same with spokes. But I think you want 26 inch wheels.

Brakes, lots of controversy there too, some want V brakes, some discs, I prefer cantilever.

Pedals, some want cleated shoes, some do not, lots more controversy.

Headset, brake levers, brand and model of bottom bracket, seatpost, etc., more controversy.

If you want a derailleur bike, I nominate 8 speed over 9 or 10 or 11 or (has anybody made a 12 yet?) ... ... with a steel axle hub. I have never owned a Phil hub, but if cost was no object, I would lean towards the Phil. I use Shimano bar end shifters on my derailleur touring bikes.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 10-21-14 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 10-21-14, 07:21 AM
  #10  
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I'd go with internals that can take a lot of punishment like Phil Wood hubs and BB and a Chris King headset. For the gearing, I'd probably go for 3 x 8 shimano stuff. For the cantis, I like the new shimano cx series. For the crank, I'd go with the trusty Sugino triple. For bar, stem, and seatpost, I'd go with nitto. For rims, velocity or mavic touring rims. I still haven't quite figured out which pedals to go with but I'd probably go with one of those double sided Shimano pedals (flat on one side, clipless on the other).
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Old 10-21-14, 07:58 AM
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veganbikes, I don't think that there can be an ultimate group for the touring riders. I believe that because unlike other cycling niches, it's common among touring riders' equipment to have three styles of handlebars, practices ranging from ultra light to fully loaded and so on.

In general I don't think that upper tier equipment is needed, at least in the way a roadie or a mountain biker (both apply to me) sees it. I built my touring bike on a budget in case I didn't care about touring as much as I thought. Over the last three years I've put many miles on it, but I have no real desire to "upgrade" anything and I like to use upper tier bits. I can stand to improve my panniers, however.

This year I picked up a second touring bike for a beater/loaner. It is a high mileage bike that had dubious care and maintenance. It's mid level equipment was in good condition only requiring cleaning and lubrication.

I do have a preference for Sugino crank sets.

Brad
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Old 10-21-14, 08:07 AM
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One real world Problem with going too Ultimate and Touring on it is when it breaks You better be in a Large Bike savvy City .

Our town LBS serves dozens of Touring Cyclists weekly, but the locals dont have the money to put into high end bikes ,

so there are no spare parts in stock .. Campagnolo users had to limp to the next town 2 days south

a Phone call ahead has a colleague shop Special ordering what they need , and getting it Rush Shipped

So it will be , hopefully , there when you Arrive.
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Old 10-21-14, 08:13 AM
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I see no value whatsoever in high-end expensive components. Can someone tell me what a $130 Chris King headset does that a $30 headset doesn't do. Good mid-range components should last a lifetime, no need to spend more, unless your are satisfying some type of fetish.
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Old 10-21-14, 08:22 AM
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Very happy with my SRAM X9(9 speed) 11-32 with a road triple running on a hollowtech bb upfront. FD is 105 and with a bit of tuning its happy with the X9 shifter. The bike shifts great. For the price I can't see how I could improve it. Suppose if money was no object I'd go internal but I really can't fault what I have. For brakes I like hydros. I have some old 530 series Deore running new xtr pads and ice tech rotors. Stopping power is off the scale. The bike I had before I upgraded to xt calipers but I really didn't feel and difference from mid range.
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Old 10-21-14, 08:27 AM
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which is the reason why I switched from indexed to pure friction for my Campy setup
anyone know which XT/XTR models are compatible with older Campy indexed?

Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
One real world Problem with going too Ultimate and Touring on it is when it breaks You better be in a Large Bike savvy City .

Our town LBS serves dozens of Touring Cyclists weekly, but the locals dont have the money to put into high end bikes ,

so there are no spare parts in stock .. Campagnolo users had to limp to the next town 2 days south

a Phone call ahead has a colleague shop Special ordering what they need , and getting it Rush Shipped

So it will be , hopefully , there when you Arrive.
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Old 10-21-14, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
So I had an idea to create the ultimate touring gruppo just for fun. For too long we have mixed and matched parts, and I want something that is Dura-Ace/Red/Super Record quality or better but designed for the wants and needs of touring cyclists. I figure this could be a fun way to pass the time and see what we might come up with.

I do want to keep it somewhat realistic-ish so "a chain that never needs lube and doesn't wear out" wouldn't cut it.
We mix and match because that's the way to get the ultimate touring group. I don't have too many bikes that are a single group, i.e. all Ultregra or all Sram, for good reason. Some parts from some groups do a better job than other parts. Just about any high end Shimano triple front derailer vs any mid to lower end Shimano triple front derailer comes to mind. The Ultregra front is narrow and difficult to set up for a wide range cassette. The Tiagra, on the other hand, has wide plates, isn't too sculpted and is more forgiving for a wider range of gears on the rear cassette. It just does a better job. Same holds true for all Shimano front derailers. The XTR is a nightmare to set up properly but the Deore is simple.

Sram mountain fronts are completely different and work wonderfully, no matter what level they are.

For hubs, I'd go completely outside the big manufacturers. I'd choose, in increasing order: Velocity, Velo Orange, White Industries, Phil Wood. The White Industries and the Phil Woods are almost neck and neck. The Whites roll a bit smoother, are less expensive and are a lighter but the Phils can be taken apart with a 5mm wrench. The edge, for me, goes to the Phils.

For cranks, I'm not sure where to turn today. Shimano has the edge when it comes to installation but they have been going all goofy with gearing lately. A Shimano Deore trekking crank with a 48 tooth outer ring would be ideal but they don't seem to like to make them for the American market. The only Deore I can find now comes stock with a 42 tooth outer which is woefully inadequate for road riding, unless you want to spend all your time coasting down hills. Raceface is okay for cranks but, again, the gearing is wrong for road riding and the installation isn't as simple as Shimano.

Brakes: For cantilever, I'd take Pauls. If I had to use discs, Avid mechanicals.

Overall, I pick components that work well and are durable rather than components that "match". They have to work together but they don't have to have the same logo.
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Old 10-21-14, 08:49 AM
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I use Campags 80's MTB derailleurs and Cranks with sun tour friction Bar end shifters

I come from an era where shifting was something you did, not something you bought, removing the skill requirement .


Look at J tech cable pull adapters for RD swapping and mixing.



NB: Pauls Is releasing their own Road, short pull, cable Disc caliper, just now.

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-21-14 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 10-21-14, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gerryl View Post
I see no value whatsoever in high-end expensive components. Can someone tell me what a $130 Chris King headset does that a $30 headset doesn't do. Good mid-range components should last a lifetime, no need to spend more, unless your are satisfying some type of fetish.
Yes, I could. CK headsets seal out dirt and water. I went through 3 cheapie headsets before I put on a CK about 10 years ago. No trouble since. Caveat: I ride in the rain a lot and roads in my area are dirty, though nothing compared to Alaskan roads, where my chain needed replacement after 3 days. (It was already some worn.)
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Old 10-21-14, 10:29 AM
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CK hubs, Ultegra 9 speed triple gruppo except XTR RD and cassette, 12-34 or your pleasure. Replace 30T granny with 26T. Stronger riders can then go with smaller, tighter cassettes and maybe the stock Ultregra RD.
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Old 10-21-14, 10:34 AM
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I liked less put into the bike and more to actually go somewhere I wanted to See.

OK its no longer summer up here , so These diversion threads happen.
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Old 10-21-14, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I'd go with internals that can take a lot of punishment like Phil Wood hubs and BB and a Chris King headset. For the gearing, I'd probably go for 3 x 8 shimano stuff. For the cantis, I like the new shimano cx series. For the crank, I'd go with the trusty Sugino triple. For bar, stem, and seatpost, I'd go with nitto. For rims, velocity or mavic touring rims. I still haven't quite figured out which pedals to go with but I'd probably go with one of those double sided Shimano pedals (flat on one side, clipless on the other).

+1

I'm using a 2x9 Shimano drivetrain with XT components, the shimano CX crankset 46/34 double, Mavic rims and Avid BB7 disc brakes, and the double-sided Shimano pedals (10,000 miles and counting, no issues).

I would like to eventually upgrade my bars and seatpost, but right now I'm just using cheap Raleigh stock stuff.

Shimano XT disc hubs in the front and back do a good job of keeping dirt and grime out, and I'm using a Praxis Works BB, which is a beautiful piece of machinery for converting a PF30 pressfit BB into a Hollowtech II BB.
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Old 10-21-14, 11:22 AM
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To design the ultimate touring group, I'd focus on the equipment that best minimizes common tour-delaying mechanicals:

Broken spokes - Buy or build yourself a wheelset that can carry your load without issue and that can repaired in the field. The Velo Orange rear hub looks to be a perfect, since the freehub body can be removed without tools, so you don't need to carry special cassette removal tools. Phil Woods and White Industries are also field serviceable. Double-butted spokes and rims with thicker brake tracks will help the wheel last longer.

Shifting issues - Nothing is more annoying than when your shifting isn't crisp and precise. That's why I use 9-speed downtube shifters. There's no cable housing to gunk up for the front derailleur and only a little bit for the rear derailleur. The left shifter is friction, so I can easily trim the front derailleur to prevent any rubbing noise, and the right shifter is indexed but can be switched to friction in a pinch. I will always be able to shift well. IMHO internal geared hubs, integrated shift levers, and bar end shifters are not great components. You will disagree, but that's why there is no ONE touring group
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Old 10-21-14, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelW View Post
Chorus 8-speed style shifters, with front microshifting, compatible with Shimano 8-speed gears.
Old style XT hubs and cranks.
8speed style? with the pointy hoods? I think you meant Chorus 10 shifters with Shimano 8. I like how the pro/con of those shifters is the same... they are rebuildable! (but, they need to be rebuilt).
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Old 10-21-14, 02:29 PM
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Walking into a bike shop with a Rolhoff problem is a lot more stressful than walking in with a bent derailleur cage. Rolhoffs are great, until they aren't, and if you're unlucky there's not much of a backup plan. Hitch-hiking is probably more feasible than a field rebuild.

That's my fear talking. I know a lot of people here use and love them. I definitely think there are advantages if you've got the initial capital to purchase one, and you're SURE you can rely on it over great distances.

Part of what I love about traditional drivetrains is that it's very easy to diagnose issues and field-repair. I know if sh** REALLY hits the fan, I can cut my chain down and run my bike as a single-speeder, getting me back to civilization. This flexibility and peace of mind, and transparency, really makes a traditional drivetrain stand out for most touring.


Realistically, these are things that actually happen on tour:

Broken spokes- build very strong wheels, learn to use a Kevlar replacement spoke and true a wheel, and ride carefully (the last one is key).

Worn brakes- use brakes that are easy to adjust (V-brakes or mechanical disc brakes) and have replaceable pads.

Broken chains- long-cage derailleurs and standard chain sizes can compensate for removing a bent link or quickly replacing a chain locally. Do you have a chain breaker and some extra pins in your kit? Why not?

Popped Tires- I wouldn't tour without at least two spare tubes, some Stan's, duct tape, a dollar bill tire boot, levers, a good pump, and in some especially long tours, a spare folding tire.

Are you going to bend your fork, completely overhaul a bottom bracket, snap your handlebars, destroy the bearings in your headset? probably not, no matter what quality of parts you're using. keep it simple and maintain it, and a $1000 bike can run just as reliably and for just as long as a $10,000 touring dream machine.

Nothing against boutique parts, just don't let them be a barrier for entry in your mind.
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Old 10-21-14, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mdilthey View Post
Walking into a bike shop with a Rolhoff problem is a lot more stressful than walking in with a bent derailleur cage.
In general, Internal-gear hubs are much more durable than derailer systems. The Rohloff has a reputation for being bulletproof. My NuVinci has been trouble-free for 5000 miles, including a 3200 mile tour.

Personally, I'd never go back to a derailer system unless I was racing and had a support crew.
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