sad :-(
#26
Out fishing with Annie on his lap, a cigar in one hand and a ginger ale in the other, watching the sunset.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
the use of the word ghetto is imprecise. Bruce attempts to marginalize this subforum by its incantation.
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. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
#27
totally louche
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And I think Bruce- a founding member of the North Carolina coalition for bicycle driving- realizes his attempts to marginalize this subforum are not going unnoticed
#28
BF's Level 12 Wizard
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Originally Posted by Bruce Rosar
Ah, so you believe that there can't be real debate (without the quotes) about VC?
Welcome to the ghetto.
Welcome to the ghetto.
There is no real debate about VC, just mindless inane bickering. For reference, I refer you to every single thread about it on this forum. Every single intelligent thread was turned into a tirade against the previous dissenting poster.
VC "debate" and "discussion" needs a subforum due to its unique semipolitical nature.
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Originally Posted by Bklyn
Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
#29
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
to be blunt, if some specific poster didn't overlay their personal ideas in a pedantic, browbeating manner in the general A&S forum, perhaps this subforum wouldn't be needed. . . .
Seriously, this forum could end up being a very good thing. The problem was not that VC was discussed, it was that a few posters got the vapors whenever HH posted something, and then dragged the thread down. VC topics are still discussed in A&S, but with more civility. If the heckler's veto crowd play their games, and the thread deteriorates into an argument we've had a thousand times, the thread will be moved here.
This subforum could be a very good thing. People who want to argue can do so in the A&S main forum. People who just want to throw junior-high-level insults can do so here.
This subforum should probably be retitled "The Doghouse." My sense is that is how it will operate in practice.
Last edited by Daily Commute; 03-20-07 at 04:25 AM.
#30
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DC knows, he was a fly on the wall during all of the moderators discussions concerning A&S over the last few months and took copious notes that he will now provide for us, won't you DC? I've worked with lots of spin doctors dude, you ain't even in the top 100.
I'll ask the ignored question again....is the Road Racing subforum of the Road Cycling forum considered a slum or doghouse? Perhaps I should go over there and take a poll, see what the members of that subforum feel so we can understand why they are not a bunch of whiners like we seem to have here.
For chris' sake, you'd think people would be happy the vehicular cycling now has a subforum all to itself that is displayed prominently at the very top of the A&S forum, but noooooo...all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples. Sometimes I think this should be renamed the sissy forum, for all the crying and complaining I hear..."oh the bad man called me a name and isn't being NICE to me....MOMMY!!!! How do some of you manage to function in the real world?
My take in two simple words: GROW UP!
I'll ask the ignored question again....is the Road Racing subforum of the Road Cycling forum considered a slum or doghouse? Perhaps I should go over there and take a poll, see what the members of that subforum feel so we can understand why they are not a bunch of whiners like we seem to have here.
For chris' sake, you'd think people would be happy the vehicular cycling now has a subforum all to itself that is displayed prominently at the very top of the A&S forum, but noooooo...all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples. Sometimes I think this should be renamed the sissy forum, for all the crying and complaining I hear..."oh the bad man called me a name and isn't being NICE to me....MOMMY!!!! How do some of you manage to function in the real world?
My take in two simple words: GROW UP!
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
Last edited by chipcom; 03-20-07 at 06:15 AM.
#31
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Originally Posted by chipcom
DC knows, he was a fly on the wall during all of the moderators discussions concerning A&S over the last few months and took copious notes that he will now provide for us, won't you DC? I've worked with lots of spin doctors dude, you ain't even in the top 100.
And DC ain't bad for spinning the words "personal insult" either.
#32
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The world is a Ghetto (War)
Walkin' down the street, smoggy-eyed
Looking at the sky, starry-eyed
Searchin' for the place, weary-eyed
Crying in the night, teary-eyed
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Wonder when I'll find paradise
Somewhere there's a home sweet and nice
Wonder if I'll find happiness
Never give it up now I guess
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
------ long instrumental break ------
There's no need to search anywhere
Happiness is here, have your share
If you know you're loved, be secure
Paradise is love to be sure
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
(The world is a ghetto)
{21 times and fade}
Walkin' down the street, smoggy-eyed
Looking at the sky, starry-eyed
Searchin' for the place, weary-eyed
Crying in the night, teary-eyed
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Wonder when I'll find paradise
Somewhere there's a home sweet and nice
Wonder if I'll find happiness
Never give it up now I guess
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
------ long instrumental break ------
There's no need to search anywhere
Happiness is here, have your share
If you know you're loved, be secure
Paradise is love to be sure
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto
(The world is a ghetto)
{21 times and fade}
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#33
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and then there's this one by Elvis:
"In the Ghetto"
(words & music by scott davis)
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray chicago mornin
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
cause if theres one thing that she dont need
Its another hungry mouth to feed
In the ghetto
People, dont you understand
The child needs a helping hand
Or hell grow to be an angry young man some day
Take a look at you and me,
Are we too blind to see,
Do we simply turn our heads
And look the other way
Well the world turns
And a hungry little boy with a runny nose
Plays in the street as the cold wind blows
In the ghetto
And his hunger burns
So he starts to roam the streets at night
And he learns how to steal
And he learns how to fight
In the ghetto
Then one night in desperation
A young man breaks away
He buys a gun, steals a car,
Tries to run, but he dont get far
And his mama cries
As a crowd gathers round an angry young man
Face down on the street with a gun in his hand
In the ghetto
As her young man dies,
On a cold and gray chicago mornin,
Another little baby child is born
In the ghetto
"In the Ghetto"
(words & music by scott davis)
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray chicago mornin
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
cause if theres one thing that she dont need
Its another hungry mouth to feed
In the ghetto
People, dont you understand
The child needs a helping hand
Or hell grow to be an angry young man some day
Take a look at you and me,
Are we too blind to see,
Do we simply turn our heads
And look the other way
Well the world turns
And a hungry little boy with a runny nose
Plays in the street as the cold wind blows
In the ghetto
And his hunger burns
So he starts to roam the streets at night
And he learns how to steal
And he learns how to fight
In the ghetto
Then one night in desperation
A young man breaks away
He buys a gun, steals a car,
Tries to run, but he dont get far
And his mama cries
As a crowd gathers round an angry young man
Face down on the street with a gun in his hand
In the ghetto
As her young man dies,
On a cold and gray chicago mornin,
Another little baby child is born
In the ghetto
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#34
totally louche
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DC- are you sure it wasn't helmet head who got a case of the vapors and let his word count runneth over to quell all reasonable discussion that helped create this subforum?
I had never seen so much arguing about semantic definitions of words on a forum about bikes before.....
A overwhelming case of pedantic obfuscationism.
I had never seen so much arguing about semantic definitions of words on a forum about bikes before.....
A overwhelming case of pedantic obfuscationism.
#35
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Originally Posted by Daily Commute
Seriously, this forum could end up being a very good thing. The problem was not that VC was discussed, it was that a few posters got the vapors whenever HH posted something, and then dragged the thread down.
#36
Ride the Road
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Originally Posted by chipcom
DC knows, he was a fly on the wall during all of the moderators discussions concerning A&S over the last few months and took copious notes that he will now provide for us, won't you DC? I've worked with lots of spin doctors dude, you ain't even in the top 100.
Originally Posted by Daily Commute
If the mods want to move every such discussion to the VC forum, that's fine with me, but I suspect they will only do that if a thread degenerates into a standard set of bickering. Maybe the threat of having a thread moved will keep both sides more civil. If that happens, then the VC subforum will be serving a good purpose.
Originally Posted by Brian
That's pretty much it. I was accused of calling all VC threads rubbish earlier. You can have a VC discussion in the VC forum, but if a regular A&S thread turns into a completely off-topic VC debate, that's where it's going. . . .
Originally Posted by Daily Commute
As long as the regular A&S forums stay free of "anti-VC lunacy" there will be no problems.
Seriously, that is the key. If the Anti-VC'ers want the pro- and anti-VC debate to stay out of regular A&S forums, the anti-VC'ers will have to start showing some restraint in regular A&S threads.
If the anti-VC'ers use regular A&S threads to call ideas they disagree with "lunacy," or falsely accuse people of "worshiping" someone whom they have criticized, they can expect a response. If they support anti-VC positions (striped bike lanes on 25 mph downtown streets, the wholesale adoption of "Complete Streets," etc.), they likewise invite a response from a variety of perspectives.
Finally, name one person in this forum who "worships" Forester. I haven't seen anyone who has uncritically supported him. By contrast, a few of you do seem to "worship" white stripes of paint. (And if this kind of back-and-forth is where you want to take this thread, you're on the way.)
Seriously, that is the key. If the Anti-VC'ers want the pro- and anti-VC debate to stay out of regular A&S forums, the anti-VC'ers will have to start showing some restraint in regular A&S threads.
If the anti-VC'ers use regular A&S threads to call ideas they disagree with "lunacy," or falsely accuse people of "worshiping" someone whom they have criticized, they can expect a response. If they support anti-VC positions (striped bike lanes on 25 mph downtown streets, the wholesale adoption of "Complete Streets," etc.), they likewise invite a response from a variety of perspectives.
Finally, name one person in this forum who "worships" Forester. I haven't seen anyone who has uncritically supported him. By contrast, a few of you do seem to "worship" white stripes of paint. (And if this kind of back-and-forth is where you want to take this thread, you're on the way.)
Originally Posted by Brian
DC - thank you.
Originally Posted by chipcom
I'll ask the ignored question again....is the Road Racing subforum of the Road Cycling forum considered a slum or doghouse? Perhaps I should go over there and take a poll, see what the members of that subforum feel so we can understand why they are not a bunch of whiners like we seem to have here.
For chris' sake, you'd think people would be happy the vehicular cycling now has a subforum all to itself that is displayed prominently at the very top of the A&S forum, but noooooo...all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples. Sometimes I think this should be renamed the sissy forum, for all the crying and complaining I hear..."oh the bad man called me a name and isn't being NICE to me....MOMMY!!!! How do some of you manage to function in the real world?
My take in two simple words: GROW UP!
For chris' sake, you'd think people would be happy the vehicular cycling now has a subforum all to itself that is displayed prominently at the very top of the A&S forum, but noooooo...all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples. Sometimes I think this should be renamed the sissy forum, for all the crying and complaining I hear..."oh the bad man called me a name and isn't being NICE to me....MOMMY!!!! How do some of you manage to function in the real world?
My take in two simple words: GROW UP!
To my fellow VC'ers, give this a chance to work. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion in main A&S threads. Just be reasonable, avoid personal attacks (even in response to personal attacks), and stick to the thread topic. This change has the potential to make discussion of VC-related topics much more civil and to prevent a few people from using a heckler's veto to try to shout down arguments they don't agree with.
Edit: Quote from chipcom's thank you thread added.
Last edited by Daily Commute; 03-22-07 at 02:05 AM.
#37
totally louche
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I ride VC, and I hate the way the threads in A&S degenerate into some kind of pissing match, chestbeating and semantics debates about word usage versus the actual concepts being discussed.
unlike DC's mistaken impressions, vehicular cyclists CAN advocate for on-road bike infrastructure!
unlike DC's mistaken impressions, vehicular cyclists CAN advocate for on-road bike infrastructure!
#38
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I ride according to the rules of the road and I support and use bike facilities.
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#39
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Originally Posted by tomg
thanks everyone!
it's alittle clearer now. it's still unbelievable that it had to come to this, seems some people like to argue for the perceived sport of argue.
advocate for what you believe is right, in the correct channels!
i guess this is the channel for now (for vc stories and advocacy)!
it's alittle clearer now. it's still unbelievable that it had to come to this, seems some people like to argue for the perceived sport of argue.
advocate for what you believe is right, in the correct channels!
i guess this is the channel for now (for vc stories and advocacy)!
Originally Posted by chipcom
DC knows, he was a fly on the wall during all of the moderators discussions concerning A&S over the last few months and took copious notes that he will now provide for us, won't you DC?
#40
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Brian
Something had to be done, and this seems to be working so far.
Actually, the moderators wanted to nuke A&S completely, out of frustration. Then Joe and I discussed just locking it down for a few days. But I think he had suggested before (he is a pretty smart guy) making a subforum in A&S for VC, so here we are. If nothing else, admitting the problem exists seems to have done some good. My singular description of the forums is "Community". If we cannot share ideas and respect other's opinions, we have no community. And if the moderators and admins had a mission statement, it would be something along the lines of preserving, maintaining, and growing our community.
Actually, the moderators wanted to nuke A&S completely, out of frustration. Then Joe and I discussed just locking it down for a few days. But I think he had suggested before (he is a pretty smart guy) making a subforum in A&S for VC, so here we are. If nothing else, admitting the problem exists seems to have done some good. My singular description of the forums is "Community". If we cannot share ideas and respect other's opinions, we have no community. And if the moderators and admins had a mission statement, it would be something along the lines of preserving, maintaining, and growing our community.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#41
Banned.
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I want to say... I am all for this change. I notice already new topics being brought up in the general A&S forum by new members which would have gotten no notice, or outright scorn, before the forum was split. I also notice that it hasn't stopped the VC discussions from moving right along either. I think this is a win-win situation for all involved.
#42
370H-SSV-0773H
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Originally Posted by mostatebears
I drive my car down the sidewalk, run red lights and stop signs. I often drive at night without any lights and when cars are backed up I drive in the ditch around them and then take off when the light turns green.
Noone will tell me how to drive darn it!!!!!!
Sounds pretty stupid doesnt it?
So does most of the non VC cycling stuff I read.
Noone will tell me how to drive darn it!!!!!!
Sounds pretty stupid doesnt it?
So does most of the non VC cycling stuff I read.
- and why i will *never* use some of the roads down here...
#43
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
Here in North Carolina, there is a significant push for the designation of sidewalk-type facilities as bike paths. This is accompanied by plans to narrow the outside travel lanes, and in some cases to legally ban cyclists from the adjacent roadways. This is the "pedestrian on wheels" approach that vehicular cyclists here must advocate against, for their own safety and efficiency.
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No worries
No worries