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What is 'Best Practice for Cyclists?'

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Old 10-14-09, 10:58 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist

got anything to rebut american roadway best practices as endorsed by the FHWA and the AASHTO manual, or are you just blowing smoke?
Poor Glenn Bek. Still drinking the Federal Kool-Aid. Can't you analyze? Do you always believe what Uncle Fed tells you to believe? Or only when it coincides with your prejudices?

Be an individual. Analyze for your self. You don't have to believe it just because Papa tells you so. Be an American. Challenge gov'mint. Make 'em prove it.

But [sigh] I forget. You don't even understand the difference between correlation and causation. You need to start over. Get your GED, apply to college, attend, pay attention, keep an open mind, learn. The real adventure of learning is when you are presented something new, and you get frustrated and are struggling to get it. THAT is when real learning takes place.

You CAN do it Glenn. Go for it!
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Old 10-14-09, 11:09 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by genec
...the fact that there is more cycling mode share where there is more infrastructure is undeniable. Either the infrastructure draws cyclists, or cyclists demand it. Either way, there IS a relationship.
As Botto would say..."Incorrect".

Explain Japan. How many times do I have to remind you guys that there are places where there is no bike infrastructure that have way more bike usage than anywhere in the usa and most of europe? Japan has just as many cars, just as much wealth... no bike infrastructure (other than parking)...and tons of bike riders.

The things that cause or allow for high bike ridership are largely independent of bike infrastructure. Infrastructure can increase rates a few percentage points. But it will never give you more than that. To get true high bike ridership numbers, you have to have solid public transportation, a healthy population, multi-use neighborhoods, etc. If you just do those last things, and skip the bike infrastructure, you'll increase cycling much more than any bike infrastructure changes are capable of doing.

So why put your energy into bike infrastructure? It's the least effective method of increasing cycling.
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Old 10-14-09, 11:10 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
Where in the lane do you recommend locating the sharrow in a 14' wide outside lane? Where in a 12' lane? We have a number of sidewalk MUPs showing up alongside urban and suburban arterials in NC with 14' and 12' lanes, posted 45mph. Some of these sidewalk mups are signed for bicycle use.
boy steve, i'd defer to AASHTO guidelines. let's see, no sharrows in roads over 35mph.

and FHWA design intents :

Originally Posted by FHWA
Any roadway treatments intended to accommodate bicycle use must address the needs of both experienced and less experienced riders.
and how to accomodate bicyclists along a road cooridor with an adjacent MUP alongside a 45mph 12 foot laned road?

the answer is NOT "rip out the MUP" or "DON'T build the MUP, make moms and kids ride 45 mph cooridors in narrow lanes on their bikes or stay off the public roads!"


that is a question i don't know that i have a good answer. sidepaths shouldbe generally discouraged but there are places they are viable

From AASHTO
Originally Posted by AASHTO
Shared use paths should be thought of as a complementary system of
off-road transportation routes for bicyclists and others that serves as a necessary extension to the roadway network. Shareduse paths should not be used to preclude on-roadbicyclefacilities, but rather to supplement a system of on-road bike lanes, wide outside lanes, paved shoulders and bike routes.

the road should get restriped for bicycle use by B&C cyclists if there ISN'T an acceptable alternative to that transportation cooridor. but it sounds like there is an alternative.

what would YOU do, steve? design wise? rip out the MUPs remove all bike specificity and expect all the bicyclists in your community to be forced into 45 mph + traffic in 12 foot lanes?

oh, right, you'd rather people get segregated off their bikes by untenable road conditions, right i remember. they need to shape up or get off the roads! right. how elitist and distinctly unpopulist of you, steve.

Last edited by Bekologist; 10-15-09 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 10-14-09, 11:11 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by randya
as a society we have subsidized motor vehicle use both directly and indirectly for so long there is no question that similar subsidies should be offered for bike use if we are really serious about altering the transportation mode split in any significant way.
+1 Absolutely agree. Despite all the Federal rhetoric about bicycling they spend about .1 percent of their budget on bicycle infrastructure. The Netherlands spends 10%.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it would be hard to think of a better way to advance the automobile and petroleum industries than to build the freeway system that facilitated the growth of suburbia.
Whether or not this massive change was something the people as a whole wanted I'll leave to others.

If you gave me a magic wish and I could get rid of the private automobile, it would be tempting to wish for it.
Yes, it would curtail some individual freedom, and I'd miss my excursions into the wilderness accompanied by more food and drink than I could bring by bicycle, but it's still a tempting thought.

But it is not realistic. Americans are in love with their cars and trucks. They're addicted. I'm in favor a massive gas tax (coupled with an equal reduction in other taxation), but it is hard to think of a more unpopular idea in this country.
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Old 10-14-09, 11:14 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim
As Botto would say..."Incorrect".

Explain Japan. How many times do I have to remind you guys that there are places where there is no bike infrastructure that have way more bike usage than anywhere in the usa and most of europe? Japan has just as many cars, just as much wealth... no bike infrastructure (other than parking)...and tons of bike riders.

The things that cause or allow for high bike ridership are largely independent of bike infrastructure. Infrastructure can increase rates a few percentage points. But it will never give you more than that. To get true high bike ridership numbers, you have to have solid public transportation, a healthy population, multi-use neighborhoods, etc. If you just do those last things, and skip the bike infrastructure, you'll increase cycling much more than any bike infrastructure changes are capable of doing.

So why put your energy into bike infrastructure? It's the least effective method of increasing cycling.
Agree... and not just because I lived and taught and cycled in Japan for two years.
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Old 10-14-09, 11:19 PM
  #156  
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i think we have a lot to learn from japanese culture.

Originally Posted by Nippon
010
Improvement of bicycle traffic environment
It is necessary to systematically implement hard measures and traffic
regulation to secure a bicycle traffic space in order to advance the
improvement of the bicycle traffic environment for both pedestrians
and bicycles nationwide. In January 2008, the National Police Agency
and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism
specified the bicycle traffic environment improvement model area in
98 places over the country. In these model districts, a project for
bicycle traffic environment that can be examples in the future by
producing bicycle paths and a space on the street exclusively for
bicycles within approximately two years.
In order to secure the road space that can be used safely by
pedestrians, bicycles and automobiles, a pilot program was carried out
on a trial basis in cooperation with the Suginami Ward in Tokyo. This
was done to improve the running space for bicycles using existing road space. Its effectiveness and possible application was analyzed and traffic rules and manners for bicycle riders were promoted.
and the sidewalk bicycling marker ubiquitous in Tokyo

and the Washington Post about tokyo cycling... maybe they are also 'nitwits'.

Originally Posted by washingtonpost
Traffic chases most Tokyo cyclists onto sidewalks, where they periodically bump into pedestrians. Mothers are forbidden by law to carry more than one child on a bicycle, but tens of thousands of them do it every day.

"The manners of Tokyo cyclists are very poor and sometime suicidal," said Nobuyuki Tsuchiya, director general of public works in Edogawa, a Tokyo ward with 640,000 people, most of whom ride bikes. As for government transportation officials in Japan, Tsuchiya said it is difficult to find one who doesn't show some "negative thinking about bicycles. We are far behind our counterparts in Europe."

Still, a bicycle is an essential component of life in Tokyo. Impossibly thin women in four-inch heels ride them, as do important-looking men in black suits. Cycling's chaotic ubiquity is a result of several factors: population density, the high cost of driving and arguably the world's best train and subway system.
hmm, sidewalk cycling from dense traffic and high bike use from expensive motoring costs and good alternate mass transit linking into bike riders multimodal commutes? nice.

best practice for american cyclists? naw, i bet we can get some inducements for roadway cycling built in and roadway architecture enhanced to encourage bicycling on the roads while enhancing safety.

Hey, I've got an idea, let's ask the Federal Highway Administration! they might have some manuals or something you could look at, danarnold

Last edited by Bekologist; 10-14-09 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 10-14-09, 11:47 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim
As Botto would say..."Incorrect".

Explain Japan. How many times do I have to remind you guys that there are places where there is no bike infrastructure that have way more bike usage than anywhere in the usa and most of europe? Japan has just as many cars, just as much wealth... no bike infrastructure (other than parking)...and tons of bike riders.

The things that cause or allow for high bike ridership are largely independent of bike infrastructure. Infrastructure can increase rates a few percentage points. But it will never give you more than that. To get true high bike ridership numbers, you have to have solid public transportation, a healthy population, multi-use neighborhoods, etc. If you just do those last things, and skip the bike infrastructure, you'll increase cycling much more than any bike infrastructure changes are capable of doing.

So why put your energy into bike infrastructure? It's the least effective method of increasing cycling.
the explanation for japan is that their cities are much more compact, they have way better public transportation and they don't subsidize motor vehicle use to anywhere near the extent the US does
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Old 10-15-09, 03:58 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by danarnold
Sidewalk = multiple use path, aka 'MUP.'

Think about it. A MUP is a sidewalk. A sidewalk is a path allowing multiple uses.

But even dedicated bike only paths become de facto MUPs. And that is the way it will stay until cyclists outnumber pedestrians and all other users. Even then I predict there will be sufficient skate boarders, roller skaters, inline skaters, pedestrians and dog walkers to keep cyclists from riding fast on those paths more safely than they do in the streets.
Some sidewalks do work that way... others are so crowded with poles, and electric boxes and bushes and people and other stuff that they barely function as sideWALKs. Same with some MUPs... narrow doesn't work well. There is such a variation in BL, sidewalks and MUPs that we simply cannot declare that they do or don't work.

In my area I even have MUPs that have stairs... some cyclists still go that route. We also have the opposite, a near perfect bike highway that has seen far more bike traffic now than when there was a shareable road before (road was widened and turned into a limited access freeway, path parallels new freeway).

There are no perfect answers, but the one thing that is undeniable is that when an area is made less auto centric, and more comfortable for cyclists and pedestrians, people do chose those other modes to travel.

As long as a traveled way looks like something best suited for a car, people will tend to only drive. It's the old saying "of if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
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Old 10-15-09, 04:11 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim
As Botto would say..."Incorrect".

Explain Japan. How many times do I have to remind you guys that there are places where there is no bike infrastructure that have way more bike usage than anywhere in the usa and most of europe? Japan has just as many cars, just as much wealth... no bike infrastructure (other than parking)...and tons of bike riders.

The things that cause or allow for high bike ridership are largely independent of bike infrastructure. Infrastructure can increase rates a few percentage points. But it will never give you more than that. To get true high bike ridership numbers, you have to have solid public transportation, a healthy population, multi-use neighborhoods, etc. If you just do those last things, and skip the bike infrastructure, you'll increase cycling much more than any bike infrastructure changes are capable of doing.

So why put your energy into bike infrastructure? It's the least effective method of increasing cycling.
What you are saying makes some sense. But don't consider the issue as "needing bike infrastructure," see it as needing a system that is not "auto only." Often times bike infrastructure simply means "not slanted to autos only." I do tend to agree about mass transit too, but the other factor in Japan is population density.

In the dense urban core there are places where the practicality of everyone having a personal auto is quite questionable... London, NYC, SF, Bogata et. al. all for instance have come to realize that mass transit, walking and cycling are far more practical than moving about "mostly empty wheeled boxes." The suburban settings of much of America however, make even mass transit largely impractical.

The motor car is not a dismal failure, but expecting the motor car to have access everywhere IS a doomed plan... overall it is best to plan for a multimodal transportation system, as America once had, before it was all given up for a single mode.
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Old 10-15-09, 06:37 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by randya
the explanation for japan is that their cities are much more compact, they have way better public transportation and they don't subsidize motor vehicle use to anywhere near the extent the US does
Of course. And these are the things one needs to work on if they want to increase the use of bikes in the usa. But instead we argue about bike paths! Ridiculous.

And Bek, that cycling sidewalk marker you posted and claimed is ubiquitous (don't know how you came to that conclusion) is actually a stop sign, not a directive to ride on the sidewalk. I would caution you against believing news reports about cycling in Japan and encourage you to believe those with actual experience living and biking there. (myself and danarnold, for example)
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Old 10-15-09, 06:48 AM
  #161  
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honestly, i'll trust the washington post before you or danarnold, pacificslim.

it's a 'stop sign?' really? for who? oh, bikes. and where? on the sidewalk!

your skew is teribbly biased.

maybe i should have said 'marker for the ubiquitious sidewalk cycling in tokyo'.


it's a marker in a sidewalk for bikes when they are using sidewalks, and sidewalk riding is ubiquitious is crowded japanese cities, enough the government is studying how to reduce the hazrds between pedestrians and bicyclists.

the japanese system of much sidewalk riding in dense cities with very expensive costs of car ownership is NOT a desired 'american best practice' to accommodate bikes but if you want to think that way, fine.

here's a quote from the Daily Yomiuri, sept 18, 2009

Originally Posted by Prudent pedaling Saori Kan / Daily Yomiuri Staff Writer
It is natural that most cyclists want to use sidewalks as traffic-jammed roads are typically far from bike-friendly and are understandably seen as too dangerous.


you know, the highway officials in THIS country have done a lot of work on this road design stuff.

guess how you can design a public right of way to reduce sidewalk cycling ? (hint: it's called adding some _____ lanes ) oh, and the japanese transport ministry also understands this....

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Old 10-15-09, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
the japanese system of much sidewalk riding in dense cities with very expensive costs of car ownership is NOT a desired 'american best practice' to accommodate bikes but if you want to think that way, fine.
I've lived it. And it's far better than any other transportation reality I've experienced elsewhere in the world. The key? Public transportation. Work towards that and you'll increase walking and cycling and decrease car trips. Much more effectively than advocating bike lane construction.

FWIW, sidewalk cycling in Japan isn't that big of a deal: most neighborhoods don't even have sidewalks anyway and the bikes control the roads.
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Old 10-15-09, 04:07 PM
  #163  
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I would wholeheartedly disagree with any statement inferring the best way to facilitate greater roadway bicycling in the USA is build better mass transit.


mass transit is definetly part of the strategies to increase roadway bicycling and active transportation in a community.
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Old 10-15-09, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I would wholeheartedly disagree with any statement inferring the best way to facilitate greater roadway bicycling in the USA is build better mass transit.


mass transit is definetly part of the strategies to increase roadway bicycling and active transportation in a community.
More AND better mass transit. It's pretty non-existent outside of metro areas.

Having lived the Japan model myself, I would much prefer riding my bike locally and taking a train/bus/plane for intra-community/state travel....though in this country the ability to take the bike too would be key...you can't just leave it in a rack and expect to see it again in these parts, nor expect to easily get a rental at your destination.
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Old 10-15-09, 04:52 PM
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they have limited bike space on several Amtrak routes already, not that great but at least it's a start

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten...554487&ssid=43
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Old 10-15-09, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I would wholeheartedly disagree with any statement inferring the best way to facilitate greater roadway bicycling in the USA is build better mass transit.
You mean 'implying' not 'inferring.' But ... whatever. Your opinions on these matters are of less and less value the more you write. Your logic and writing are clumsy and unclear. Your automatic acceptance of whatever the government tells you demonstrates you do no analysis yourself, but simply rely on the government. I'll just take note of the Fed's official spokesman, and their opinions, and disregard your version of what they think.
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Old 10-15-09, 06:19 PM
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I've lived in countries with good public transit systems and I did not own a car. My life was still rich.

I've lived in countries without good public transit systems and I did not own a car, but my world was very, very limited at that time. I will never choose to live in such a small bubble again: I need to be able to experience a larger geographical space and therefore either need public transportation that actually works, or a car.

That's why there is no modern industrialized nation with high bike ridership that does not have a great public transportation system (mainly, rail). There are places without bike lanes or paths, but there are none without public transportation. Got it Bek?
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Old 10-15-09, 06:38 PM
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I'm sorry, pacific slim.

despite your earnestness,

expansive mass transit and lots of sidewalk cycling in tokyo does not equate to higher american bike ridership.

build great mass transit and you'll get lots of transit use but american road bicycling needs a distinctly different treatment.

again, you've heard of the federal highway administration? they've got some guidelines you might want to familiarize yourself with before you continue your transit=bicycling artifice.

I won't dispute that transit networks work in concert with bike networks to build active transportation share in cities, but there's more to mixing bikes and cars on american roads that more buses and light rail.

got it?

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Old 10-15-09, 08:11 PM
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What the feds believe to be true is their own business. i don't have to agree with them. especially since it is this same government transportation administration that got the usa into the position it is in now and not have the much preferable situation that japan has.
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Old 10-15-09, 08:40 PM
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'much preferable situation'? :crowded streets and mamachari on the sidewalks biking to light rail networks>

NOT the best practice to facilitate greater rider share on american roadways.


I will loan you a clue as it seems you don't have one.
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Old 10-15-09, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I'm sorry, pacific slim.

despite your earnestness,

expansive mass transit and lots of sidewalk cycling in tokyo does not equate to higher american bike ridership.
More of your bad facts coupled with incompetent logic and sloppy writing. When I cycled in Japan I never rode on sidewalks and never saw anyone else, save children, do so. And why you would construct your clumsy sentence about cycling in Tokyo relating to riding in the States is beyond me.

Bek, you are embarrassing your fellow bike lane advocates. The best thing you can do for your cause is to let others advocate for it. You unintentionally mock it.
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Old 10-15-09, 08:44 PM
  #172  
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do you have any interest in discussing american roadway best practices to facilitate bicycling or not?

have you looked the AASHTO bicycle portion of the green book and its attendant supporting literature?

Where and how, specifically, do they fail to meet 'best practice' to build safer rider share in america?
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Old 10-15-09, 10:20 PM
  #173  
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There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just copy what has worked for other places. And what is that one thing that they have that we don't?

You have decided that is is bike paths because SOME countries that have high bike ridership have bike paths, and then you must ignore or belittle the countries that do not have bike paths and still have high bike ridership because they don't fit your argument. But...The true common denominator all high ridership industrialized countries have is not bike infrastructure but...you guessed it...mixed used neighborhoods and plenty of public transportation (trains).

America doesn't have to be any different than the rest of the world. Just copy what has already been proven to work. BTW, they should do the same thing with health care as well!
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Old 10-15-09, 10:27 PM
  #174  
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copy what's worked in other countries, sure.

Look at what bicycle transportation researchers like John Pucher have to say about inducements to bicycling that work in other countries and get back to this thread once you have gotten a clue.

here's some background on 'what's worked' in other countries...

Originally Posted by Momentum magazine
In a recent academic article entitled Making Cycling Irresistible: Lessons from the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany, Pucher notes that both the European Union and the US have officially recognized the importance of cycling as a practical mode of urban transportation and both support the objectives of increasing cycling levels and improving safety.

The major difference is in the degree to which these objectives have been met: the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany are at the forefront, with policies that make cycling safe, convenient, and attractive, while the UK and the US have fallen short.

According to Pucher, “differences between [the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the US, and the UK] in cycling levels are enlightening because all five of them are democratic, capitalist, affluent societies with nearly universal car ownership. The success of cycling does not depend on poverty, dictatorial regimes, or the lack of motorized transport options to force people onto bikes.” The Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany have made cycling a popular way for mainstream society to get around cities.

The key policies and innovations used in Dutch, Danish, and German cities to promote safe and convenient cycling focus on:
Extensive networks of separated cycling facilities
Intersection modifications and priority traffic signals
Traffic calming
Traffic education and training
Bike parking
Co-ordination with public transport
Traffic laws



Together with these explicitly pro-bike initiatives, Pucher notes that land-use policies encourage compact cities that generate shorter, more bikeable trips, and where car use is made expensive, less convenient, and less necessary through taxes and restrictions on ownership, use, and parking.
the above are some of the global 'best practices' to encourage greater bicycling participation. how to bring these to the american roadscape and in which way?


i find your "transit is the solution that will induce greater american roadway bicycling" outrageously specious.

Last edited by Bekologist; 10-15-09 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 10-16-09, 12:21 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim
America doesn't have to be any different than the rest of the world. Just copy what has already been proven to work. BTW, they should do the same thing with health care as well!
My how the mighty have fallen. I remember when they used to copy us.
 


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