LAB vrs Strict VC... the Reed Bates issue.
10-28-11, 06:05 PM
#76
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take it up with the judge 
the judge found reed was recklessly endangering other road users with his reckless riding, and found him guilty.
like I've been saying all along, there's a reasonable way to ride, and a reckless way.
Indignant riders, rally! vC versus the WORLD!
the judge found reed was recklessly endangering other road users with his reckless riding, and found him guilty.like I've been saying all along, there's a reasonable way to ride, and a reckless way.
Indignant riders, rally! vC versus the WORLD!
10-28-11, 10:20 PM
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But it's permitted right there in the law, at least in Texas --
551.103. OPERATION ON ROADWAY.
...
(c) Persons operating bicycles on a roadway may ride two abreast. Persons riding two abreast on a laned roadway shall ride in a single lane. Persons riding two abreast may not impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic on the roadway. Persons may not ride more than two abreast unless they are riding on a part of a roadway set aside for the exclusive operation of bicycles.
Now, the "may not impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic" bit has some room for interpretation, and it may be that two cyclists riding abreast should go single file if somebody wants to pass -- but in the case of a four lane road, passing traffic should never squeeze into the lane with the cyclists (just use the other lane!) and so going single file doesn't actually help traffic pass one bit.
Not that Chipseal was riding two abreast, he was just taking the lane by himself. Personally, I don't think it matters where in the lane he was riding, as long as he wasn't at the far left or right (both make it too easy for a car to force him into sharing the lane, making it dangerous but probably not illegal as long as he's entirely in his lane) but others seem to disagree.
551.103. OPERATION ON ROADWAY.
...
(c) Persons operating bicycles on a roadway may ride two abreast. Persons riding two abreast on a laned roadway shall ride in a single lane. Persons riding two abreast may not impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic on the roadway. Persons may not ride more than two abreast unless they are riding on a part of a roadway set aside for the exclusive operation of bicycles.
Now, the "may not impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic" bit has some room for interpretation, and it may be that two cyclists riding abreast should go single file if somebody wants to pass -- but in the case of a four lane road, passing traffic should never squeeze into the lane with the cyclists (just use the other lane!) and so going single file doesn't actually help traffic pass one bit.
Not that Chipseal was riding two abreast, he was just taking the lane by himself. Personally, I don't think it matters where in the lane he was riding, as long as he wasn't at the far left or right (both make it too easy for a car to force him into sharing the lane, making it dangerous but probably not illegal as long as he's entirely in his lane) but others seem to disagree.
Maryland has typical FRAP language in the traffic code.
Today I was able to get on my bike for the first time in several days due to inclement weather for several days. At one point, I was in the 'slow' lane of four-lane blacktop w/ a concrete divider. As I was approaching a red light the driver behind me, who was apparently in a tremendous rush to make a right-turn, was nearly touching my back tire and telling me to ride in the gutter. I adamantly refused. But I think even if Maryland did have language in the state traffic code, like what you posted above, very few drivers around here would care.
10-29-11, 06:56 AM
#78
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chris= in those instances, its practicable to ride the left of a lane, to allow impatient drivers making rights to move around on the right. Reed unwaveringly rode a 65mph state highway at the edge of the lane dividing line, and did so after being contacted by police about his reckless bike operation, on the day that led to his conviction.
reed rode wrong. reasonable road use and reckless usually do not overlap. reed proved it. its a shame he gets so much play as the poster child for the indignant gladiator clique of the "bicycle rights" crewe. I'd much rather rally round Fred Armisten.
reed rode wrong. reasonable road use and reckless usually do not overlap. reed proved it. its a shame he gets so much play as the poster child for the indignant gladiator clique of the "bicycle rights" crewe. I'd much rather rally round Fred Armisten.
10-29-11, 06:38 PM
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The second witness to testify was the firefighter, Lonnie, who has been a firefighter for 23 years in Ennis... He stated the cyclist was in the outside lane in the middle.
...
Third Witness
The third witness to testify was the arresting deputy, Emiliano. Emiliano patrols and answers calls for service and is a certified peace officer for the Ellis County Sheriff’s Department. He was dispatched to make contact with the defendant on Highway 287 “in the middle of the road.”
...In cross examination, the defense attorney made the point that Bates was attempting to explain the law and safe riding practice. He also elicited a clarification that “middle of the roadway” actually meant “middle of the right lane.”
...
Prosecution Questions
The prosecutor questioned the defendant about the Texas Statute involving shoulders, particularly the portion that allows a cyclist to ride on the shoulder. In some rather argumentative questioning (most of which was successfully objected to), the prosecution claimed that the law gives the cyclist a choice, and he chose the dangerous choice, the middle of the lane.
...
Third Witness
The third witness to testify was the arresting deputy, Emiliano. Emiliano patrols and answers calls for service and is a certified peace officer for the Ellis County Sheriff’s Department. He was dispatched to make contact with the defendant on Highway 287 “in the middle of the road.”
...In cross examination, the defense attorney made the point that Bates was attempting to explain the law and safe riding practice. He also elicited a clarification that “middle of the roadway” actually meant “middle of the right lane.”
...
Prosecution Questions
The prosecutor questioned the defendant about the Texas Statute involving shoulders, particularly the portion that allows a cyclist to ride on the shoulder. In some rather argumentative questioning (most of which was successfully objected to), the prosecution claimed that the law gives the cyclist a choice, and he chose the dangerous choice, the middle of the lane.
ETA: https://dfwptp.blogspot.com/2010/08/p...sus-bates.html
Last edited by benjdm; 10-29-11 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Link
10-29-11, 07:19 PM
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The prosecution rests.Judge calvert said this during the sentencing.....
Originally Posted by Judges' sentencing of 'reckless' Reed
....As the parties were arguing and even some of the evidence earlier, trying to think of an example that might apply and I don’t know that this is a good example, but this is the one that came to mind, is that it’s not unlawful for a boy to swing a bat. In fact, it’s good for them, it’s good exercise, it’s good for them to participate in athletics and be in team sports and things of that nature.
But there are times when swinging a bat can become more dangerous, get into a crowded room or you get into circumstances, the swinging of the bat circumstances can change in such a way that if you put other people at peril even if you’re not at risk of being hurt, they might be injured by the way that you’re doing something that otherwise is completely lawful.
And there are times when it can even go beyond that where it’s reckless to where it could even be construed as knowing that there’s a high likelihood that somebody would get hurt if you continue that type of behavior and at some point, some people can infer by your conduct that you’re intentionally putting other people at risk, so that you could be accused of assault and even at times aggravated assault with a deadly weapon with a piece of wood that otherwise completely lawful to be utilizing. So there’s a spectrum there that has to be taken into consideration. And there needs to be good judgement utilized by people not only with regard to their own safety but to the safety of others. And you may be right. It may have been safer for you under some circumstances to ride in the middle of the roadway, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t create a hazard for other people at times. And it may even jeopardize your own safety under certain circumstances. You have to take into consideration the safety of other persons and their property under those circumstances.
But there are times when swinging a bat can become more dangerous, get into a crowded room or you get into circumstances, the swinging of the bat circumstances can change in such a way that if you put other people at peril even if you’re not at risk of being hurt, they might be injured by the way that you’re doing something that otherwise is completely lawful.
And there are times when it can even go beyond that where it’s reckless to where it could even be construed as knowing that there’s a high likelihood that somebody would get hurt if you continue that type of behavior and at some point, some people can infer by your conduct that you’re intentionally putting other people at risk, so that you could be accused of assault and even at times aggravated assault with a deadly weapon with a piece of wood that otherwise completely lawful to be utilizing. So there’s a spectrum there that has to be taken into consideration. And there needs to be good judgement utilized by people not only with regard to their own safety but to the safety of others. And you may be right. It may have been safer for you under some circumstances to ride in the middle of the roadway, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t create a hazard for other people at times. And it may even jeopardize your own safety under certain circumstances. You have to take into consideration the safety of other persons and their property under those circumstances.
personally, i take the lane a lot and do not hesitate to claim the lane when needed for safety.
There's a reasonable way to ride, and there's a way to ride with reckless disregard for others - the difference should be crystalline to all of us accustomed to road cycling in a wise variety of conditions.
Regardless of where or on what road - there is a certain 'sweet spot' of fair, legally defensible and considerate road use in Texas or any other state, when riders operate in a safe, legal, reasonable road position; and there is the reckless rider way.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-29-11 at 07:32 PM.
10-29-11, 08:28 PM
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The prosecution rests.Judge calvert said this during the sentencing.....
Ride reasonably and with a duty of care to other road users. Do not ride recklessly and with callous calculated disregard for others. This case, as embarrassing as it is for the indignant rider crewe, is pretty instructive. It's vc versus the world.
personally, i take the lane a lot and do not hesitate to claim the lane when needed for safety.
There's a reasonable way to ride, and there's a way to ride with reckless disregard for others - the difference should be crystalline to all of us accustomed to road cycling in a wise variety of conditions.
Regardless of where or on what road - there is a certain 'sweet spot' of fair, legally defensible and considerate road use in Texas or any other state, when riders operate in a safe, legal, reasonable road position; and there is the reckless rider way.
10-29-11, 08:37 PM
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And this is apparently determined not according to any clear metric, but the whims of other road users. Is that _really_ what you want to push for?
10-30-11, 04:27 AM
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sorry, I have years and many thousands of miles of reasonable riding experience on state highways.No problem here. It appears the problem arises when riders push their riding into the 'calculated reckless disregard for others' that the problems arise.
Reeds' blog leading up to his arrests reads like a trainwreck. Cars passing on the right was the norm, him spitting on cars..... its ludicrous. Reed Bates was an absolute train wreck of disregard for the responsibilities he has as a road user.
one more time for those that read this...... there's a reasonable way to operate a bike, and then there's a reckless way. BICYCLE RIGHTS, man! It's VC versus THE WORLD!
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-30-11 at 04:31 AM.
11-07-11, 01:29 PM
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chris= in those instances, its practicable to ride the left of a lane, to allow impatient drivers making rights to move around on the right. Reed unwaveringly rode a 65mph state highway at the edge of the lane dividing line, and did so after being contacted by police about his reckless bike operation, on the day that led to his conviction.
11-07-11, 02:14 PM
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Ride reasonably and with a duty of care to other road users. Do not ride recklessly and with callous calculated disregard for others. This case, as embarrassing as it is for the indignant rider crew, is pretty instructive. It's vc versus the world.
Personally, I take the lane a lot and do not hesitate to claim the lane when needed for safety.
There's a reasonable way to ride, and there's a way to ride with reckless disregard for others - the difference should be crystalline to all of us accustomed to road cycling in a wise variety of conditions.
Regardless of where or on what road - there is a certain 'sweet spot' of fair, legally defensible and considerate road use in Texas or any other state, when riders operate in a safe, legal, reasonable road position; and there is the reckless rider way.
Personally, I take the lane a lot and do not hesitate to claim the lane when needed for safety.
There's a reasonable way to ride, and there's a way to ride with reckless disregard for others - the difference should be crystalline to all of us accustomed to road cycling in a wise variety of conditions.
Regardless of where or on what road - there is a certain 'sweet spot' of fair, legally defensible and considerate road use in Texas or any other state, when riders operate in a safe, legal, reasonable road position; and there is the reckless rider way.
11-07-11, 06:54 PM
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'Taking the lane all the time because I don't trust motorists' sounds like a serious handicap for a bicyclist, to be perfectly honest, chris.
I'd suggest some cycling classes, from the LAB perhaps, on smartly and safely sharing the road.
I'd suggest some cycling classes, from the LAB perhaps, on smartly and safely sharing the road.
11-07-11, 07:54 PM
#87
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ChipSeal was riding on a 65mph road. That is definitely something I will never do. I will go on a 40mph, but not a road with a higher speed limit than that. I 'take the lane' all the time, because I don't trust motorists', even in the town I live in where the speed limit is 15mph. I know I sort of take the 'me vs. them' stance. But when you have been hit by ignorant drivers' on multiple occasions, you start to develop a thick skin and harder edge to your cycling.
The main arterial road leading north is 45MPH, the east west road is 35MPH, but if you take that to next thru north road, you will find that road to be 65MPH. Then the road that intersects is 55MPH. And these are NOT highways, but surface streets... with traffic lights, multiple lanes, intersections, driveways and stores. Just outside my office, some 7 miles to the north, the road that leads to the local main intersection is only a mere 60MPH, and the nearby major cross road arterial is 45MPH.
If I took your stance of never going on a road above over 40MPH I would barely be able to leave my home.
Yes, there are bike lanes on most of these roads over 40MPH in my area, but those bike lanes are not continuous... so for instance on the 55MPH road (Miramar Road for any locals) you will find big yellow "Share the Road" signs right where the bike lane ends and you have to "take the lane" from 55MPH motor traffic (if they understand what "share" means.)
For any locals, the 45MPH roads are Genesee, and Mira Mesa; the 65MPH road is Kearny Villa Road. I mentioned Miramar road; Vista Sorrento Parkway is the 60MPH road... just to name a few local roads. BTW every one of these high speed roads is paralleled with a freeway, so it isn't as if motorists don't have a choice, if they "need" to go fast... but cyclists do not... these are the roads that cyclists use.
11-10-11, 04:29 PM
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APPEAL DISMISSED as UNTIMELY. I have been checking this thread for news of the appeal in the Reed Bates case. Apparently his appeal was filed 14 days too late and was dismissed. https://law.justia.com/cases/texas/el...011/10037.html
I have mixed emotions about it. It would have been nice to get a favorable appellate decision but an unfavorable one would have been precedent for a wider area than Ennis Texas. Now, it will only be precedent for that county.
I have mixed emotions about it. It would have been nice to get a favorable appellate decision but an unfavorable one would have been precedent for a wider area than Ennis Texas. Now, it will only be precedent for that county.
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