enigmaT120

If only.

Vital_Signs

But trying to merge into traffic is a good way to eat asphalt.

benjdm

Around you, maybe. You're a motorist (or, in your own words, moron) who chooses unsafe passes over slowing down until it's safe to pass.

How does traffic avoid merging into traffic, anyway? I'm having trouble picturing it. Bicyclists not only have to stay off the roads but stay away from all other traveling humans?

Vital_Signs

The key element here is the fact that "traffic" is most likely moving 3-4 times as fast as you and is comprised largely of 2 ton metal objects. In the interest of self preservation, I would stay out of the middle of the road.

Think of another scenario, you as an American have the right to freedom of expression, however if you walk around Harlem wearing a T-shirt that says "I hate black people" you're going to get your ass kicked and nobody is going to be very sympathetic even though you "were the victim of an unprovoked case of assault and battery when you were just exercising your rights as an American."

Most drivers can't go 10 minutes without breaking some type of traffic law and you expect them to follow to the letter a law they don't even know about?

Blinkie

In many cases taking the lane is necessary to prevent, or at the very least discourage, unsafe passing. By that I mean to keep cars from squeezing the cyclist off the road, or from straddling the line through a blind curve and risking a collision with oncoming traffic.

Taking the lane IS a safe practice, regardless of your personal thought experiment to the contrary.

Bekologist

dang bikers, riding in the road!

Haven't you heard, people you encounter that don't think bicyclists should ride on the road are morons?

Vital_Signs

Wait... straddling the line? You mean the one between opposing lanes of traffic? Why are you so opposed to staying on the far edge of the outside lane or the sidewalk?

You guys are riding in the middle of the lane going 1/3 the speed limit and are surprised when people get fed up idling behind you and side swipe you. Instead of taking the hint and thinking "you know, maybe it isn't a good idea to try and personally enforce traffic laws because it clearly isn't working, so I think I'll just ride to the side of the road and allow people to safely pass me."

AlmostTrick

True. Many motorists don't know the rules and don't care. This is preciously why I ride my bike as I do… Assertively, and generally according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Contrary to what the OP is trying to tell experienced cyclists, this technique works well (best, I'd even argue) and is plenty safe... yep, even around morons.

What a troll. Pics of you on a bike or it never happened.

Vital_Signs

So... disagreeing with the consensus makes me a troll...
Evidently you don't know what trolling is or you're just trying to cut my argument off. If you don't agree with me and don't want to argue then don't come in the thread. It's not like I am going thread to thread bringing this up. I have kept my opinions to one thread that I started. I am easy to avoid if you don't feel like dealing with me, a troll wouldn't be so nice.
I know I am disagreeing with the consensus, which is why I made only one thread in the correct forum; because I am not a troll and simply have an opinion that I wish to express.
I have followed the rules of the forum to the letter and don't appreciate being called a troll.

Though, this does go to prove my point, even you guys do it. Even though you see someone doing something you know they have every right to do, you still get mad and attempt to do everything in your power to thwart their actions because you don't like what they are doing.

I-Like-To-Bike

Your comments above are the first thing you posted that I agree with; 100%. I don't agree with the other stuff you posted but your posting of an opposing view does not merit disparaging remarks about "trolling."

I also have run into the hoard of know-it-all yappers who cry "troll" at the posters who dare present a view that doesn't fall in line with the consensus view of the "correct crowd."

benjdm

You don't say.

When I ride in the middle of the road, it is FOR self preservation. The lane in question is 10.5 feet wide - far too narrow to share side by side. A car and a bike and a safe distance between the two cannot fit in 10.5 feet. If I ride too far to the right, the morons will fail to give me a safe passing distance. They will also often cross the yellow line and take up space from the oncoming lane even with oncoming traffic. When I ride in the middle of the road, they either stay behind me or cross fully into the passing lane.

Awful analogy. No one in this thread is appealing to a general right to travel as a justification for riding in the lane. They are appealing to very specific traffic laws saying where bikes should be ridden. (Laws that non-moron motorists are aware of when they take their driver's license tests and afterward.) And those very specific laws say that bikes should be on the roadway. For example, here is what the Florida Department of Transportation says about where bikes should ride:

Show me a government agency in charge of apparel saying I should wear a shirt saying "I hate black people" when in Harlem and your analogy would have some validity.

Please, go read your states' drivers' manual and educate yourself on the rules of the road you're supposed to be licensed to know and follow.

Vital_Signs

Sidewalks haven't been brought up yet, what are your opinions on those? In my town pretty much every road has a sidewalk on both sides and you can pretty much make it from one side of town to the other without ever leaving the sidewalk, also in my experience very few people use the sidewalks except during early morning runs.

Commodus

awesome thread

Blinkie

Sidewalks HAVE been brought up, in response to your own previous statements. You've ignored those parts apparently, and you obviously don't do searches to see how much it is also discussed on this forum outside of this thread.

Redactions are for irrelevance, bold text for expedience, color for corresponding statements.

So in Florida it may be legal to ride on the sidewalk. But I cannot suggest that it is a safe alternative; even the State law recognizes as much. But if there are ever any pedestrians while you're out, please be sure to slow down and give them THEIR proper space as well. And don't in the least be surprised when you have the right of was across a crosswalk and a car nearly hits you because the driver didn't expect to see someone moving so quickly across the intersection.

It's why so many of us defend road riding as the safest method: It leaves the cyclist in a visible location cooperative with the other vehicles on the road.

Besides, sidewalks end eventually. Then, when you want to go outside of that radius, what's your option? Your original examples revolved around your trips to playing paintball. Do you intend to still play? You don't have to catch a ride if you choose to ride a bike out there. What about something going on in the next town over? A lot of states only rquire sidewalks under certain circumstances, usually within a distance of a residential area or shopping. If that's the limit you're accepting now, you'll miss out a lot of independence and freedom for a long time.

Vital_Signs

You make out like the only way to ride a bike is pedaling as fast as possible without slowing down.
Crosswalks? Isn't it common knowledge that you come to a stop before crossing the road, looking both ways and waiting for it to be clear, and if you can, only cross at a cross walk.

And my town pretty much has sidewalks on almost every road for miles. For example, I can get from my house to the mall, a 7 mile ride, on a sidewalk the entire way.
Here is a map of my town, if you zoom in you will be able to find a sidewalk on one or both sides of almost every road.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=map+v...ed=0CAsQ_AUoAg

AlmostTrick

Disagreeing with the consensus has nothing to do with it. If it quakes like a duck… someone’s going to call it a duck. You seem to be quite thin skinned for someone who called Blinkie insecure, and his post "a long chain of bull****."

Maybe just like the roads, the forums just aren’t for you.


“Followed the rules” indeed!

Blinkie

Not in the absolute least. i make it out that there are many people on the road and sidewalks, and all of them deserve to be treated with respect and safety.

No; it's not a common practice that when parallel traffic is moving, the crosswalk sign indicates to pedestrians to walk, and all other signs point to approaching pedestrians that it's their turn to cross that intersection, that people stop and think whether it's safe to cross the intersection with the exception that at that moment a car is being wedged among the pedestrians to cross. To most pedestrians on the sidewalk, when the little white person shape lights up, they start crossing because they are given, as I so clearly stated before, the RIGHT OF WAY through the intersection. Everyone I have ever seen riding a bicycle on the sidewalk pretending to be a pedestrian, does this. It is practical, and I agree dangerous. But it's more dangerous that motorists do not expect to see someone traveling faster than a walking pace on a sidewalk, and even if they do, being set back from the road so far leaves you out of sight at intersections. The options are very few at this point: Walk; ride at a walking pace; get off the bike and push it across absolutely every intersection and driveway; ride with the rest of the vehicular traffic on the road.

It takes a lot of work to get back to a decent riding speed. And you're on a bicycle; slow riding is faster than a brisk walk. That makes being on a bicycle very impractical for riding on a sidewalk. Do you suggest stopping for every intersection without a light or stop sign? I doubt it. Further, it's a pain in the neck to constantly mount and dismount. It even gets annoying to step off the bike and wait for a red light to change, just from the change in position. But you suggest this is completely necessary at every vehicular crossing of the sidewalk (though you only said intersections, it makes sense to add every vehicle crossing, because there are far too many intersections without lights or stop signs, and too many driveways -- including residential, commercial, and industrial -- which cross sidewalks, and in every case people will speed to the edge of the main road and nosedive their vehicles to stop, without checking anything before the actual road), looking both ways, making sure it's clear, no one is about to turn in from parallel traffic, no one is about to turn but not using their signals, no one is drunk and about to run off the road, and down the line (if we take all your previous posts in mind here).

If you decide to ride at a very slow pace, you might as well walk. Anything below 6 miles per hour, to me, isn't worth sustained riding on a flat surface, because it offers no speed benefit over walking, though pedaling requires moving one's legs much faster than walking or using much more force, just to keep moving. The trade-off of effort at that point is far from worth it. If you ride at an appreciable pace, you have to keep repeating the effort of gearing down, stopping, stepping down from the seat to hold the bike up, watch that no one is turning into the intersection, or about to, stepping back onto the bike, pedaling, accelerating, and getting back into a higher gear (fearing, of course, omitted for single speed/fixed hear bicycles and mashers). Your bicycle is a vehicle. All vehicles are meant to be operated for longer periods of time, and it's a bother in or on any vehicle to have to keep stopping.

But you mention pedaling as fast as possible. Why? You think moving is all out or not at all? Of course not! If the only way to pedal was as fast as possible, everyone would be worn out after short distances of sprinting. It's why people ride at a reasonable speed. I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you.

The basic answer is that everyone crosses at a best guess for safety while on a sidewalk. But again, this dissuades the use of bicycles on the sidewalk. If someone dashes in front of you, you can't stop as easily as a pedestrian. You need more time and space to come to a stop, or risk being thrown over your handlebars. The risks are very much greater to cyclists on the sidewalk than on the road. This is why although it is technically legal in Florida, it is discouraged.

Then RIDE the sidewalk to where you want, because you legally can. But I will still and always insist that the sidewalk is not the safest place to ride. And limit yourself only ever to your town. Never do a century-plus ride to a coastal town just for the fun of it. Never ride six hours down a two-lane wooded country highway just to see what's at the other end. Stay on the sidewalks.

But my all means stop taking everyone else's information as extremist in the other direction just because there may be a different, safer method of cycling to your destination than the sidewalk. There's no all-or-none situation anywhere, ever. There are plenty of road cyclists who will take a short path to a sidewalk if it's the only way through a dangerous intersection. We all need to stop for lights and stop signs, and go only when it is safe to do so (other tangential arguments aside). I have rarely seen anyone pedal 'as fast as [they] can without stopping,' and those that do ride without stopping are always riding dangerously and being disruptive to traffic.

But you've already made your mind up what you're going to do. So stop preaching to the rest of us, and do what you've already decided what you will. The rest of us will read, research local laws, and educate ourselves about what is safe and practicable.

Vital_Signs

Are you one of those guys on the forum, (every forum has a group like this) that has been here so long that you begin to validate yourself through your join date?

Bekologist

so, the OP doesn't like to ride on the road.

The OP has chosen to stick to the sidewalks, and posts to the vehicular cycling subforum at Bike Forums about the wisdom in his choice, how his sidewalk riding should be emulated as model riding technique, despite sidewalk riding being generally slower and fraught with greater operating hazards for the cyclist.



it's really too bad the OP has chosen to limit himself, but keep at it, skipper! Someday, hopefully, the roads will open up for you. It sounds like you really need to explore getting more comfortable riding a bike on the road now that you can't drive anymore.

i think there's plenty of those (hack, cough) cycling savvy instructors around Tampa that would be happy to help the OP overcome his extreme fear of traffic.

I find it tragic, and terribly fascinating.

A person, forced by medical reasons out of a car, SO scared of traffic they won't ride a lot of roads, and trying to convince others his fear of traffic should be everyone's fear of traffic.

It sounds like a medical condition that should be found in the new DSM-V out next year - projected traffic aversion disorder.


it's sad, isn't it?

enigmaT120

No sidewalks or road shoulders where I live. I guess I better just stay in a nice, safe car for the rest of my much shorter life.

jon c. 

1. My safety, this was a winding road, in Florida, and you always have to vigilant because the drivers are morons, so when I had to move over to avoid the cyclists, if I was on a curve I wouldn't be able to see oncoming cars.

If you can't see oncoming traffic, you shouldn't be passing. Wait until you can see, then pass. Most drivers understand this.

2. I didn't understand why the cyclist would put themselves in that situation.

I ride on winding roads in rural Florida because they are beautiful. And because they are the roads around my house. The vast majority of drivers around here are fine with cyclists and give plenty of room. They generally wait to pass until it is safe to do so. Haven't encountered much road rage myself. In my part of Florida, drivers and bikes get along pretty well. Occasionally we'll get a shout or random beep, but nothing that would rise to the level of 'rage.' And 98% of the drivers are happy to share the road.

loneviking61

Really? I do it all the time. I have a rear view mirror, I also turn and look before merging in along with hand signaling.

The OP's real problem seems to be that he has very little idea of road riding with a bicycle. He also assumes that most motorists are ignorant of laws pertaining to bicyclists. I'd say that assumption is often wrong. In some places, that may be true but in many places it's not.

If there's road rage, it's usually from a motorist that's pissed off about something other than a cyclist unless the cyclist is doing something extremely stupid and dangerous. Something like the Spandexed idiot that tried to cross six lanes of 50 mph traffic against the light in a cross walk and almost caused several rear end collisions. But, usually you find road rage where there's lots of jammed up traffic, long commute times and very frustrated people in general. The cyclist just winds up being a convenient object to vent against. The best antidote to that rage is to ride like you're a part of traffic, ride responsibly and obey the traffic laws.

typingsux

I drive a car, and am a cyclist. I am a considerate and law abiding car driver and cyclist, which is all I can do. I cannot control drivers on the road where I am cycling or driving. There are moron car drivers and moron cyclists, believe me. I see them every day.

If someone calls cyclists a moron I don't take it personally. The first post outlined how there is an unsafe road for cyclists to use and they still use it. I wouldn't use it as a cyclist. It's quite possible that the cyclists he referred to are morons for using it.

Bekologist

That wasn't established in the original post. The only thing vital_signs established in the original post was motorists that pass bicyclists unsafely on the road in question are morons.

turbo1889

The only cure for cagers that think they own the road and that bicyclists have the duty to "get out of their way" regardless of the fact that the law says the opposite (of which the OP by her own words is one) is a one strike you are out law for a motorist that intentionally runs down a cyclist, two strikes you are out for one that runs down cyclists do to willful wanten negligence (under the influence, texting, etc . . .), and three strikes you are out for one that runs down cyclists due to regular negligence. No statute of limitations strikes count for life and when I say you are out I do mean out permanently.

When the road is too narrow for a cager to pass a cyclist without endangering the cyclist when there is oncoming traffic then by law the cager is required to wait to pass the cyclist when they can do so safely when there is a break in oncoming traffic and sufficient visibility to complete the pass just as required when passing any other vehicle on the road. To do less is criminal, the OP fully admits she has performed such criminal activity in her very first post and thinks she has a right to do so and that the cyclists are the morons for being on the road. "Entitlement Mentality" is far more of a problem then road rage IMH(BC)O and the OP definitively has it.

I do understand motorist's feelings of being slighted by cyclists when some cyclists think they can ride on the public roads and have all the same privileges and deserving of the same respect as other road users but refuse to accept responsibility to follow the rules of the road and think they are immune from them. I completely understand a motorist's feelings that has to slam on their brakes on a green light when some crazy cyclist decides to blow through the red light or when they get scared and then angry when they see a cyclist on the wrong side of the road coming straight at them in the travel lane that plays chicken with them up until the last moment and then darts to the edge of the road and passes them on the left. This I understand and even respect. I have no respect for cagers that think they own the road and that cyclists don't belong on the road (or a specific road) and think that cyclist should "get the *R%&%$ out of their way" or "get the U*#^@% off the road" or "this road is too narrow and windy to bike on use another one".

YOU DON'T OWN THE ROAD ~ that goes for both commercial big rig drivers and personal motor vehicle drivers and motorcycle drivers and scooter drivers and low speed electric or IC motor assisted bicycle drivers and human pedal powered bicycle drivers. The roads are community owned and we all get to use them provided we agree to follow the rules of the road. If you won't follow the rules and respect other users then you don't get to use the roads at least as a driver, you are what is known as a passenger only.