Joe you are the man thank you for all the info , for some reason the LBS in my area must really suck none of them so far have any test bikes that I can ride go figures .. SO im thinking about possibly going into the NJ area myself ... I did sit on a defy 3 and it seemed pretty nice or at least sitting on the damn thing lol ... but Ill give NJ a shot I am looking for something entry level im bad though I will walk into the store and end up getting a 2g bike which I am really trying to avoid !! I just figured if im going to take the plunge do it right the 1st time ya know .. being that you seem to have lots of experence with this what would you recommend as a newbie rider like if it were you what would u go for?