thanks all, you see i don't see why a touring bike should be heavy .if it's built by someone who knows it should ride perfectly on any terrain, it should climb as good as any top notch road bike .
i really don't think an off the peg bike will stand up to the mark be honest do you.
my next touring frame will be custom with tighter angles but no toe overlap issue i'm thinking reynods 853 oversized tubing/ lugged frame . everything else will be left to the frame builder.
and hopefully he will get it wright.