OK- this is what I mean: for a small company such as Velo Orange, we will have better quality stuff produced in Taiwan vs China. It costs us more, but sometimes the cheaper price is not always the best for various reasons and not just the product itself. I know little about on the ground Chinese working conditions, environmental results and other CSR related concerns. I do know a lot about the situation in Taiwan, and it's a whole lot better than what you would find in most production facilities in the States, at any scale of manufacturing. I/Tom have also done business with my Taiwan suppliers for 20 years. I know what they can and can't do, know when companies split, change ownership, embrace newer technologies. I have seen their kids grow up and have kids themselves. With that information I know I should work with Company A instead of Company V. Those decisions are way less dependent on price than you will ever know.

Sun can buy a factory, we buy production time. There's an economy of scale that is in play here. I would rather have the ability to move to a new supplier instead of being stuck with owning a factory too.

But getting back to the original comparison, the M13 II is an approximate match to our PBP. When you look at it. the Sun has a more CR-18 type angled profile, just a lot narrower. The PBP is a true box section.

The Raid is a different rim altogether- wider (22mm), a true box section, double wall, double eyeleted, thicker sidewalls, thicker spoke bed. Its narrower and lighter than our single eyelet Diagonale, and the Single eyelet Sun CR18. It's going to be heavier than our single eyelet PBP. The eyelets are what make this cost more; we've spent a few years working with the factory on this and they finally agreed to do it. If we didn't go for double eyelets, it would be a cheaper rim, but it would be like every other singe eyeleted rim on the market. So far, they seem to be accepted.


As for an unbiased opinion, that's not going to happen. No matter what I say, you are going to perceive it with some sort of bias. I do think the above is strictly the facts though, and I tried to avoid hyperbole. Just the facts, mang.

I realize you are not trying to give us a hard time.