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Introduction: (Deliberately Short ~ Please Read)

I work two jobs a morning and an evening, four days a week each.

M, T, W, Th for one job and T, W, Th, F for the other.

Thus on T, W, & Th all I do are commute to work and between jobs, work, eat, sleep, and personal hygiene. There isn’t usually time for much else.

Thus why I dropped off this thread for the middle of the week.

A lot of posts have been made in the mean time. So, yes, a whopper of a post is my reply; another “wall of words”.

I have, however, divided it into sub-sections with topic headings in bold type face. Read the stuff that interests you and forget the rest if you don’t want to read the whole wall.
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Where are you in Montana?


Northwest Montana is my “stomping grounds”. Basically everything north of Missoula and west of the mountain range that runs through the east side of the Bob Marshall Wilderness and Glacier National Park, that corner of the state. My home area is the north end of Flathead Lake and surroundings. Specific bicycle infrastructure that I am aware of exists in Somers, Kalispell, and Whitefish and if memory serves me correctly I think there is a single bicycle path near the school in Eureka and a bicycle path or two in Troy and Libby as well. There is also a path in Polson but I think it is a multi use path and not a designated bicycle path.

I am sure there is also some bicycle specific infrastructure in Missoula but I do my best to stay out of that stink hole and only go that far south to connect with the interstate highway. Also have some experience with cycling in the Belgrade/Bozeman area since I have friends in that area, can’t recall any bicycle specific infrastructure there, at least that I have used except what is built into the college campus grounds.

Things have improved since my younger years, specifically in that many sections of the roadways have been widened so that there is a wide shoulder edge with rumble strips in many areas where there used to be nothing but about four inches of pavement on the other side of the white line followed by about six inches of gravel and then a deep ditch or rock wall.

The main north/south highway 93 has seen the most improvement. From Somers up to Whitefish is all really nice and bicycle friendly now with nice wide shoulders with rumble strips separating you (if you use the wide shoulder as a bicycle lane) from the high speed motorist traffic except for where it goes through Kalispell where you can either merge with traffic and go VC in 25+mph traffic just before the road splits around the old court house or you can hop three or four blocks over to the east and use either of those two one way residential streets to get through town. From Polson all the way south to Missoula is also quite good now with most of the road having been widened and now having nice wide shoulder edges with rumble strips. Going around the lake (west side) is still a little sketchy and tight and narrow in spots but a lot of that has been widened as well. Going north from Whitefish to the border still has quite a few non bicycle friendly stretches unfortunately but some progress has been made in that stretch as well.

Hwy 2 which you mentioned is very good for bicyclists between Kalispell and Columbia Falls once again with nice wide shoulders with rumble strips cut into the roadway just on the outside edge of the white line. Unfortunately, it still has hardly any shoulder whatsoever where it passes through both Kalispell and C. Falls. As you are probably aware going east it chokes down in the canyon headed towards Glacier Park and once again becomes very unfriendly for bicyclists. For Glacier runs I much prefer state highway 486 the north fork road since it is much more bicycle friendly with a reasonable shoulder width and much less traffic moving much slower and go into the park through the “back door” over the bridge just opposite of the last ranger station before the border. Going west on hwy 2 from Kalispell is a mixed bag with many areas being very unfriendly for bicyclists with other areas having been widened and having nice wide shoulder edges some areas even having rumble strips as well separating you from high speed motorist traffic.

The road around the east side of Flathead Lake is very unfriendly to bicyclists in many areas but hwy 35 going south east out of Kalispell through Creston out towards that end of the lake, Big Fork, Ferndale, and the Swan drainage is pretty good with only a couple tight spots. Hwy 83 down the swan is still somewhat unfriendly to bicyclists in some areas but is much better over all then it used to be.

Long Story Short, for all the high-speed highways the primary thing that makes them unfriendly or friendly for bicyclists is width or a lack there of. This is one of those win/win opportunities for infrastructure improvement. Wider high-speed roadways with wider shoulder edges with rumble strips are highly beneficial not only for bicyclists using those roadways along side high-speed motorist traffic but also for all traffic in general making the entire roadway safer for all. I would much rather see limited public funds spent to widen the roadway with extra shoulder width, especially if that includes rumble strips on the outside edge of the white line then used to construct separate bicycle paths that run along side those roadways.

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What is your problem with cyclists who refuse to follow the rules of the road?

My complain is very real and very serious. By their misbehavior they are not only endangering their own lives they are endangering mine. There is nothing more anti-advocacy then cyclists who p*ss the living @^&@$%^@%$$#%@% out of motorists by running red lights, running stop signs, and riding on the wrong side of the road playing chicken with oncoming motor vehicle traffic.

The Idaho law you refer too (which I am aware of and which is the only one like it in the U.S. and which thankfully was utterly defeated when that knuckle head in the state house from Missoula tried to introduce it here) does indeed require that the cyclists slow down and yield to traffic at a stop sign and come to a full stop at a red light before proceeding. As I very clearly explained in my OP it is usually only the motorists that do a California style slow roll. The cyclists don’t even slow down, in addition I was very clear that the red light runners are worse then the stop sign runners and the “taking the lane” on the wrong side of the road riding against traffic and the two “kamikaze dare devils” who just bolt right out into traffic and force motorist to either stop or hit them on red lights and stop signs are worse still.

I ask you, YES or NO, does that kind of behavior by cyclists advocate cycling as legitimate users of the roadways? Does it put us at greater or lesser risk of being the target of a motorists road rage because we are cyclists just like the last dozen cyclists that they witnessed run a red light and send cars skidding to avoid hitting them with the offending cyclists having a basic attitude that would be best symbolized by a raised middle finger to the motorists and is completely unapologetic?

Quite frankly, I don’t really have that much of a problem with legalizing a California style slow roll on a stop sign. I mean a lot of motorists do it anyway legal or not my objections are in that there shouldn’t be a double standard and I know motorists would love to be able to legally slow roll and keep their momentum up just as much as cyclists. Now the red light part of the law I do have serious concerns and reservations about.

As I stated I am not even talking about California slow roll on stop signs with cyclists I am talking about full blown blowing right through like they never heard of a stop sign and that is the lower end of the spectrum it gets way worse from there.

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Why do you as the OP view VC as not including FRAP riding?

Quite frankly, I got that idea from you guys especially reading some of the rants and ravings against the “cult of VC” that take the lane and refuse to get over to the right and hold the lane as if they stole it.

I have witnessed all sides of this debate in person over the years including the various attitudes militant and otherwise behind them. I am using your terms as I saw them used on your forum to describe them as best as I can based on what and how the terms have been defined and used in previous.

Now I could have just used the term “take the lane” but VC seems to encompass a lot more then that. Namely observing the same rules of the road as any other vehicle which is the way to gain the respect of fellow road users and not “shoot yourself in the foot” in terms of your own safety, the safety of other cyclists which will also deserve to bear the consequences of your actions in the mind of a road raged motorists, and ultimately play a role in shaping the overall publics view of cyclists in general and thus is the greatest advocacy or anti-advocacy statement that any individual cyclist can make.

Now I was very clear and very careful to emphatically point out that I only hold to this sort of VC “take the lane and hold it like you own it just like a four wheeled motor vehicle would” method of riding when it comes to riding on roads with a low enough speed level, specifically 25mph or lower posted speed such that I am able to match the speed of traffic.

At least one poster on this thread, however. Namely, Bekologist, has repeatably refused to recognize my statement as conditional. Even though I have already explained the same thing as I laid out in my OP a total of three times to him so far and this will be the fourth:

I am talking about two different methods of riding one being suitable for low speed roadways and the other being suitable for high speed roadways he refuses to believe I actually mean what I say and has even gone so far as to say I am not allowed to recognize two different methods for two different situation and that I “can’t have it both ways” and that I must choose to either be a member of what he describes as the “Cult of VC” or go with his statement of “safely ride to the right” and that I can’t have both.

In addition at the same time he is deliberately baiting a continuous loop logic trap and has become rather frustrated that I refuse to take the bait (I suspect but cannot prove this is why he keeps wanting me re-explain that I do not consider FRAP to be part of VC.). The trap is as follows:

1 ~ He demands I recognize that VC includes FRAP
2 ~ He goes back to my original position of two methods of riding either VC or FRAP
3 ~ He declares that since VC includes FRAP it is really a choice between FRAP or FRAP.
4 ~ If I don’t FRAP and instead “take the lane” (VC) I’m not allowed to do that since my choices are either FRAP or FRAP.

I am not stupid enough to fall for that. Nor the high falluting language he chooses to use to describe his “always FRAP it is not safe to do otherwise” statements which I will not repeat in the same work phrase he continually uses because I am tired of reading it. Now if he would state it as “FRAP when safe to do so” that I wouldn’t have near a problem with but it is quite clear that is not what he means by his refusal to answer the question posed to him as to what he means by his repeated phrase and his “greased pig” wiggle out routine. I understand that there is a great deal of animosity between him and the other poster which posed the question to him and I quite frankly am not so sure I agree with that other poster but it is a valid question and his refusal to answer it is quite telling.

On this subject my state law and a lot of similar ones from other states only require a bicycle rider to FRAP when they are unable to maintain the speed of other traffic on the roadway. Not an individual speed head motorist but of the traffic flow in general. The wording of the law practically mirrors my riding tactics. Namely to ride VC not FRAP in slow moving traffic flows where I can maintain my speed to match that of the general traffic flow and then to FRAP except for specific exceptions including left hand turns and when I must take the lane for safety reasons on high speed roadways where I cannot keep up with the speed of traffic.

Bekologist’s insistence that FRAP be religiously observed whenever anyone faster comes from behind and wishes to overtake is just that a faith based belief system not something based in fact. My real life experience not anything I read in a book, has shown me that when I can keep up with traffic VC not FRAP is my best option. When the speed of traffic is more than I can keep up with the situation flips and then FRAP not VC becomes the best choice and having the infrastructure available to allow me to ride outside and to the right of the main traffic lanes but still up on the roadway. Namely a wide shoulder or bicycle lane is very beneficial and helpful to accommodate this. Bekologist belongs to a cult just like the one he describes as the “Cult of VC” it is just that his cult is on the other side of the spectrum. Both cults refuse to acknowledge that neither of the two sides answers are a total answer that covers all possible situations. Using both methods in turn in different situations where one makes more sense then the other provides the best results in the real world.

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Why do you expect with posting in the A&S VC section? What do you mean you expected an honest debate? How Dare You !!!

Once I saw two parties who appear to be mortal enemies on this forum lock horns right, wrong, or indifferent I knew things were about to start moving. I didn’t want the whole thread to be put in a downward spiral so I “issued a challenge to a higher standard” something I wanted all along of course but was hoping I wouldn’t have to directly issue a challenge in regard to.

Think of it like an old fashioned boxing match. A gentleman’s game. You don’t kick your opponent in the ribs when they go down and you don’t jump out of the ring and grab a folding chair and jump back in and break it over your opponents head. It is a fight no doubt and a brutal hard fought one but an honorable fight. “Honorable”, yes that is a word that can be combined with the word “fight” and not be a contradiction in terms like “Airline Service” is.

Let me be clear that it was a challenge, and somewhat of a wishful longing, it was not a demand. I never used that word or phrased my post in that way concerning this. As to why I chose to this forum to post in. As I said this is something that is important to me and something I was willing to go to bat on and I knew it could get interesting so I put the thread in this location accordingly so as not to stir things up elsewhere that weren’t already stirred up when they most diffidently were already stirred up down here.

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Stuck on your politics.

I stand by my statement that some seem to be so stuck on their politics that they can’t see the legitimate points in the other guys side and can’t see the holes in their own.

A. ~ There is a militant VC crowd who think the only way they can “retake the roads” is to punish those nasty motorists and force them to respect bicyclists on the roadway and that the best way to do that is to “take the lane” no matter what (I already explained the “no matter what” part earlier). This is the guy (or conceivably gal) you see dead center in the lane of a very high speed two lane roadway with a six foot wide paved shoulder edge outside the edge of the white line at the edge of the lane with a dozen motor vehicles backed up behind them trying to pass with maybe even an impatient motorist or two trying to go around on the right hand side and use that shoulder width to go around the cyclist on the right hand side. The cyclist who swears that any bicycle specific infrastructure of any kind on any roadway anywhere is an affront to their rights and screams profanities at other cyclists they pass who are riding in that six foot wide paved shoulder area they refuse to use.

B. ~ There is a militant FRAP crowd who think that anyone who “takes the lane” while riding in low speed traffic at the speed of traffic is wrong to do so if they could safely ride to the right instead. Just because a cyclist can maintain speed with traffic doesn’t give them the option to not safely hold to the right. They think every roadway regardless of the speed of traffic on it should have separate bike lanes off to the right. Better yet an entirely separate bike path running along side the main highway. They are the blood sworn enemies of the VC bicyclists and do their own profanity yelling only from the right hand side of the road to the VC that is taking the lane. They go so far as to consider even dangerous and ill advised infrastructure to be better then nothing. Bike lane between the main flow of traffic and parked cars – not a problem. Bike path along side the main road that created dangerous double intersections that are unmarked without signals for either cyclists or motorists every block or two where another major road intersects with the one their bike path runs along side – not a problem.

Well, maybe that is a little bit of an exaggeration and they aren’t really all that bad. But seriously, pull your head out of politics, lift head up, take a couple full deep breaths, take a long steady look around you, ponder upon what you see, take a couple full deep breaths, take a long steady look around you, ponder upon what you see, and finally come to a conclusion based upon what you see not the propaganda. What really works under which situations for the long term not just the short run?

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Closing:

As I said and was lost earlier in this giant super long post, I am mainly a self taught experience driven cyclists and have adapted my methods to what I see works and what doesn’t under different situations.

Disrespecting the most basic rules of the road and other users does not work, others do not like to share the road with you if you won’t play by the same rules they do.

Crossing roads is more dangerous then riding on roads, the less controlled the intersections at these crossings are the greater the danger, thus separate bike paths running along the side of the main road become more dangerous then the main road if this creates too many uncontrolled or poorly controlled intersections between the resulting bike path and the other major intersecting roads.

The closer you are to the main flow of traffic the more visible you are and the less likely a motorist will fail to see you and accidently run you down. The closest you can get to the main flow of traffic is to be part of the main flow of traffic. Unfortunately, that only works when you can maintain your speed to keep up with the speed of traffic.

The greater the speed difference between you and the main flow of traffic the greater cushion you need between you and them and the more you need your own designated “space”. A properly laid out bicycle lane that is properly routed through and integrated with traffic intersections is probably the best choice for your own designated space on a high speed roadway. A nice wide shoulder with a rumble strip just on the outside edge of the white line between you and the main flow of traffic is second best on a high speed roadway. Second only because it isn’t routed through and integrated with intersections. As wide of roadway as possible is next best after that for a high speed roadway. Unfortunately, some high speed roadways don’t give you anything outside the main flow of traffic in the main traffic lanes that could be considered a safe place to ride. Those roadways need to be widened and that is the first and most important step to making them more bicycle friendly.

This speed differential based need to have your own space or lack thereof is no different between bicyclists and motorist as it is between pedestrians and motorists. In a parking lot where motorists speeds are low enough pedestrian traffic does not need their own sidewalks built along the parking lanes. Pedestrian traffic at 5 miles an hour speed and motor vehicle traffic at 5 to 7 miles an hour blend together just fine in a parking lot atmosphere. But at normally motor vehicle roadway speeds the significantly slower pedestrians need their own space, commonly known as a side walk. Bicycle traffic at 20 miles an hour speed and motor vehicle traffic at 25 miles an hour blend together just fine in an in-town low speed traffic environment. But on high speed motor vehicle roadways the significantly slower speed bicycle traffic need their own space.